MBB: Great South Athletic Conference

[Spencer Beaty]

I love basketball!!  Doesn't everyone???

[scotswin]

Well, I normally read rather than post on this board, but Ido have an observation regarding these interesting discussions. 

Regardless of where you fall on the issues being discussed, I think it is a testamant to the current and former institutions of the GSAC that such real debates are being held on this thread.

[Ralph Turner]

Well, I normally read rather than post on this board, but Ido have an observation regarding these interesting discussions. 

Regardless of where you fall on the issues being discussed, I think it is a testamant to the current and former institutions of the GSAC that such real debates are being held on this thread.

I also submit that there is a deep and genuine respect amongst the posters regardless of the discussion.

[wilburt]

Well, I normally read rather than post on this board, but Ido have an observation regarding these interesting discussions. 

Regardless of where you fall on the issues being discussed, I think it is a testamant to the current and former institutions of the GSAC that such real debates are being held on this thread.

I also submit that there is a deep and genuine respect amongst the posters regardless of the discussion.

I agree with you scotswin and as always Dr. Ralph.  Despite my rhetoric, there is a deep and genuine respect amongst the posters.

[old_lion]

Coach Haynes I see your point about the "self-release" of some players but by the same token D3 coaches can recruit and bring in 10-20 players each year since there are no scholarships.  It all evens out in the wash... 

Wilburt, I see these two factors ...

(1) lack of letter of intent/ability of players to "self-release" and
(2) ability of (or the need for) coaches to recruit by the "shot gun" approach

not as factors that offset ... although, from a sheer numbers perspective, I see your point.

Instead, I see them both as factors that add chaos to the process.

I am a huge believer in basketball as a synergistic, team sport. IMHO, success is determined not so much by throwing together as many guys as possible who have talent ... but rather, by assembling a collection of components that "fit" as a team. And by success, I'm not referring just to wins. I believe there are other, less tangible factors that can make a program successful ... in other words, a worthwhile place to spend your college years.

If I were a coach, the constraints imposed by D3 rules that make it difficult to do that would frustrate me greatly.

If I were a D3 player, I'd much rather come into a situation where I could depend on a coach being able to tell me where he envisions me in the grand scheme of things AND where I could depend on my coach being able to exercise some control ... to continue to build a synergistic team during my tenure at the school.

I see both of the factors above as working at cross-purposes with the over all objective of building stability into a program. As always, that's just my opinion ... I could be wrong.

[old_lion]

Well, I normally read rather than post on this board, but Ido have an observation regarding these interesting discussions. 

Regardless of where you fall on the issues being discussed, I think it is a testamant to the current and former institutions of the GSAC that such real debates are being held on this thread.

I also submit that there is a deep and genuine respect amongst the posters regardless of the discussion.

I agree with you scotswin and as always Dr. Ralph.  Despite my rhetoric, there is a deep and genuine respect amongst the posters.

"A deep and genuine respect" may be going a little too far ... 

But for the most part, I think we tolerate each other quite well ... and I think we enjoy each other's insights and opinions.

[wilburt]

Old Lion

The reason why I liked being a D3 athlete rather than being a D2 or other scholarship athlete was the amount of control I had over my own academic career.  If I wanted to leave the team (for a semester or two), I knew that my scholarship $$$$ was in no way related to my athletic participation and thus would remain the same!

Most scholarship athletes I have spoken with over the years have been frustrated to a greater or lesser degree as to the amount of control/influence the athletic department had over your time and in some instances even the major you selected. 

For me the debate was between spending my free time in developing in my sport or spending my free time in the library in order to get the grades I wanted in order to go to the graduate/professional school I had in mind.  At times both goals conflicted.  For the most part, D3 allowed me to compete in college athletics on my own terms. 

P.S.  I think whatever word one would use that is somewhere in the middle between "tolerate" and "utmost respect" is probably best!

Have great weekend everyone...

Go Pistons (1989, 1990, 2004 and 2007? NBA Champs)

[old_lion]

Old Lion

The reason why I liked being a D3 athlete rather than being a D2 or other scholarship athlete was the amount of control I had over my own academic career.  If I wanted to leave the team (for a semester or two), I knew that my scholarship $$$$ was in no way related to my athletic participation and thus would remain the same!

Most scholarship athletes I have spoken with over the years have been frustrated to a greater or lesser degree as to the amount of control/influence the athletic department had over your time and in some instances even the major you selected. 

For me the debate was between spending my free time in developing in my sport or spending my free time in the library in order to get the grades I wanted in order to go to the graduate/professional school I had in mind.  At times both goals conflicted.  For the most part, D3 allowed me to compete in college athletics on my own terms. 

Good points! As you have so aptly illustrated, there are usually at least two sides to every issue.

P.S.  I think whatever word one would use that is somewhere in the middle between "tolerate" and "utmost respect" is probably best!

I hear you ... I was sort of using the word "tolerate" in jest. However, when considering certain combinations of posters, I imagine the terms on the opposite ends of the spectrum are more appropriate. I'm guessing you can relate ... 

Go Pistons (1989, 1990, 2004 and 2007? NBA Champs)

I'm betting the champ is going to come out of the Western Conference.

[coachwgh]

Wilburt, will all due respect, an athlete that takes it "on his own terms" is the root of the evil with the D3 philosophy.  I know that you were a track star and track is an individual sport for the most part so it is different than basketball.  Basketball is a program, a team, a family and a responsibility.  Come into our program and be committed, if you want to leave, please do so but don't come back.  What we do here and what is done at 100's of other places is not for everyone.  When you are on a team you are committed to that team and you belong to that team.  Whatever the team does...you do.  I do agree that at the D1 level and some D2 the athletes don't ever learn how to control their own lives because they are being guided like sheep and spoon fed or force fed everything.

[old_lion]

Basketball is a program, a team, a family and a responsibility.  Come into our program and be committed, if you want to leave, please do so but don't come back.  What we do here and what is done at 100's of other places is not for everyone.  When you are on a team you are committed to that team and you belong to that team.  Whatever the team does...you do. 

Yes, Coach Haynes ... you can get an "Amen!"

Wilburt, I thought you made some good points ... I like Coach Haynes' points even better.

Which sort of circles back around do the point I was making re the lack of letters of intent and the point you made, re some coaches over recruiting in self defense ... because they are not entirely sure who they ultimately are going to have. It all points towards less than optimum commitment (both ways) and therefore, uncertainty and instability.

[scottiedoug]

I think the diffeences between basketball and track (or tennis) are important for this discussion, as Coach Haynes points out.  It is obviously complicatred to balance young people's need to make important decisions about how they spend their time, as Wilburt points out, with the need in team sports for teamness.  There are problems with how D3 sets this up, but I am not sure it would make it all better to bind people to situations they do not want to be in.  It puts a lot of pressure on coaches to find the balance but D3 coaches, or many of them, do this on purpose, even without the "certainty" of D2 and D1 rules.  Responsibility is not a science and we all probably have different ideas as to what it is or looks like or requires....

[Spencer Beaty]

How is the rest of the GSAC shaping up for next year?

[wilburt]

Wilburt, will all due respect, an athlete that takes it "on his own terms" is the root of the evil with the D3 philosophy. 

Isn't that a little harsh Coach Haynes? Although Track is an individual sport for the most part, it is a team, a family and responsibility much like any other college sport.  Particularly on the sprint relay teams I ran on where precision and timing were paramount!

Let me pose this hypothetical question to you Coach Haynes, what if one of your players (let's say a senior for purposes of discussion here) has a VERY IMPORTANT interview with an admissions director at an Ivy League Graduate School or an interview for an important entry level position at a Fortune 500 company.   If he doesn't go the chances of him getting in to the school or getting the position diminish drastically.  However, it happens to be on the same weekend as the GSAC basketball tournament.  Neither of them can be rescheduled, what would you want your player to do?   Otherwise, this player has done everything you have asked him to do Coach Haynes. Does it matter to you whether he starts or not?  Or whether he is All-Conference or not?

The reason I pose this hypothetical is because something similar (not identical) happened to me at Fisk a few times.  My coach and I did not see eye to eye on these things when I spoke with him about it.  If your kid "takes it on his own terms" is he part of the root of evil in D3? 

I'd like your thoughts on this as well Doug and Old Lion...
 

[old_lion]

However, it happens to be on the same weekend as the GSAC basketball tournament.  Neither of them can be rescheduled, what would you want your player to do? 

I'd like your thoughts on this as well Doug and Old Lion...  

OK, my two cents worth ...

Once your hypothetical situation gets to that point, it's a tough call.

But to me, it seems the solution to the problem would have been  a little up front planning. Certainly, the player would have known about the upcoming tournament far in advance ... and had it on his schedule as a commitment he was going to keep, "come hell or high water", so to speak.

I think the commitment to the team comes first. Putting myself in your hypothetical player's position, I can't imagine scheduling anything that would conflict with my commitment to my teammates and my coach and to the completion of my Senior season ... so, in my way of thinking, rescheduling could not be an issue.

Also, considering the situation from a slightly different angle ... putting myself in the place of the Fortune 500 or Graduate School interviewer ... I would prefer to select someone for "my team" who could show evidence that he values his commitment to his "current team" over his immediate self-interest.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong ... but it is how I see the "big picture".

[Pat Coleman]

This happens more than you think, folks.

http://www.d3hoops.com/features/emorym.html