MBB: Great South Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Patience is a virtue, don't be impatient wanting a subjective ranking, if you finish in the sweet 16 it is objective, you were one fo the best 16 teams in the country.

No, you are one of the final 16 teams in the country. Until the NCAA gives us a nationally balanced bracket in Division III (hah!) that's all we can say for sure.

[Pat Coleman]

It totally amazes me how Maryville College who has played and beat every schlorship school this year and split with Emory who just beat the #1 team Rochester gets ZERO respect.   They beat Transylvania (who beat Whittenburg), who now Whittenburg is praised for their new found streak.  They lost only two games and both were splits: Averett who is very highly ranked in their conference and Emory.

Being ranked high in a conference doesn't equate to being ranked high in a nation. Nobody from the USAC is even receiving one Top 25 vote.

Averett is 9-9, 3-2.

Beating a team (Transy) who beat a team (Wittenberg) that gets no votes doesn't mean much either.

[scottiedoug]

Thanks for the compliment, Wilburt, and I at least miss you on this board. 

Pat, you're kinda piling on, aren't you?  Most of the regular MC posters understand the "challenges" MC has and know that in the final analysis you just have to beat whomever you can play.  I am sorry you did not get to see the Scots play like they did last night.

Lambert's comment about Tyler Gaskin (see below) is revealing.

http://www.thedailytimes.com/article/20080129/SPORTS/716384125

[Pat Coleman]

Well, I am joining that conversation a little late -- gosh, it's been all of 11 hours. -- but the poster made specific references that I thought should have specific responses. A lot of people think they know what it takes to make a national poll but don't really get that there are 400 Division III men's basketball schools and only 25 spots.

[scottiedoug]

So Pat did you pick up any tantalizing nuggets of information while Down Here about the GSAC-USASouth merger issue?  Even if the USASouth is not the ODAC by reputation (and probably also not by other measures), it would help Murvul to be and mop up in it....

[Pat Coleman]

I sat down with Randy Lambert about it and it was a significant part of the conversation.

http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/2007/12/29/southern-hospitality-piedmont-classic/

[narch]

So Pat did you pick up any tantalizing nuggets of information while Down Here about the GSAC-USASouth merger issue?  Even if the USASouth is not the ODAC by reputation (and probably also not by other measures), it would help Murvul to be and mop up in it....

i don't know that it would help them...seems to me that scheduling is the only real advantage to being in a conference like the usasac for m'ville - being the big dog in the gsac has some nice recruiting advantages and i certainly think that the usasac has shown that they're a better conference in every spot except the top one, meaning greater probability that the scots could lose a game or two they don't normally lose (ie: the loss vs. averett) - as for making the tournament, i'm not sure there is an advantage to being in the usasac...in fact, i'd probably rather be a good pool b team

don't get me wrong...if su and/or cnu depart the usasac, i'd love to see m'ville made a full conference member for all sports and if both su and cnu depart the usasac, i'd be in favor of the usasac bringing in all of the men's gsac teams (to keep the football aq), but i don't think m'ville hoops would have any advantage as it pertains to the national tournament (or national rankings) as a usasac member

[batteredbard]

Narch I think you're forgetting the AQ factor. No matter how well MC does in a given season there's a wait to see if its been good enough. I also think playing some games more toward the atlantic coast would put MC in a position to be seen by folks who haven't seen them since the ODAC days in the 90s.
If the merger does go through in a year or two (like Lambert I don't see the 09 vote really shaking up the south region that much) MC gets a better guaranteed D3 schedule to work with and I think it not only raises the MC play but raises the conference play as a whole because MC is such a different animal style wise. Lambert teams are generally not as athletically gifted but more technically sound than USAC squads. I  wonder if it doesn't force a balance in between on both sides that makes everybody better in the long run.

Overall I think the GSAC would be delighted to add some travel money to get AQs for mens sports and the USAC would love to solidify the mens AQ. The women's side gets a bit more complicated as we've said before because there would be possibly 5 more women's programs than mens but nothing insurmountable.

Pat, some how I missed the podcast interview from the southern hospitality tour. There was some really good stuff there. Again sorry that Kentucky's bowl game was deemed more vital and I had to miss it.

And to close out this rant, so I can get to Cooper to watch the women play,do I think Maryville will be a sweet 16 team probably. But do I see a schedule, and that's not necessarily the school's fault, that warrants a top 25 vote even at 16-2, not yet. Now if they are 21-2 coming out of HC road trip and depending on how the mutual devouring continues in the poll, maybe they do warrant one then. But then I don't get a vote so it's irrelevant anyway.

[mattgrubb]

I agree with Narch on the murvul issue

And with all do respect Pat, as a true Murvul guy, i care a lot less about the poll and much more about the national tournament, you get to prove your point on the court, and yes we will throw out the victories, i also think that every team in the top 25 deserves to be, all those teams seem to be pretty dang good, but murvul has beaten a lot of conference champions in their run

1999-SCAC champ Rose Hulman
2000-SCAD, hampden Sydney ODAC runner up, regular season champ
2001-MacMurray SLIAC champ
2002 Webster SLIAC champ
2003 Mississippi College
2004-Randy mac ODAC champ
2005  methodist  USAC champ
2006  Trinity
2007 Mary Hardin Baylor

they have beat some pretty good teams in that run and some good players

[batteredbard]

And out of idle curiosity ...
Anyone know why the conference site does not list player of the week releases on the basketball pages this season? They're under news but not in the news feed beneath the standings and links as they have been in the past.

[allsky7]

Narch I think you're forgetting the AQ factor. No matter how well MC does in a given season there's a wait to see if its been good enough. I also think playing some games more toward the atlantic coast would put MC in a position to be seen by folks who haven't seen them since the ODAC days in the 90s.
If the merger does go through in a year or two (like Lambert I don't see the 09 vote really shaking up the south region that much) MC gets a better guaranteed D3 schedule to work with and I think it not only raises the MC play but raises the conference play as a whole because MC is such a different animal style wise. Lambert teams are generally not as athletically gifted but more technically sound than USAC squads. I  wonder if it doesn't force a balance in between on both sides that makes everybody better in the long run.

Overall I think the GSAC would be delighted to add some travel money to get AQs for mens sports and the USAC would love to solidify the mens AQ. The women's side gets a bit more complicated as we've said before because there would be possibly 5 more women's programs than mens but nothing insurmountable.

Pat, some how I missed the podcast interview from the southern hospitality tour. There was some really good stuff there. Again sorry that Kentucky's bowl game was deemed more vital and I had to miss it.

And to close out this rant, so I can get to Cooper to watch the women play,do I think Maryville will be a sweet 16 team probably. But do I see a schedule, and that's not necessarily the school's fault, that warrants a top 25 vote even at 16-2, not yet. Now if they are 21-2 coming out of HC road trip and depending on how the mutual devouring continues in the poll, maybe they do warrant one then. But then I don't get a vote so it's irrelevant anyway.

     My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee but in my very biased opinion, MC should never have left the ODAC in the first place. Even though the Fighting Scots were somewhat the red headed step child of the ODAC, it was still the best fit

[Ralph Turner]

I agree with Narch on the murvul issue.

And with all due respect Pat, as a true Murvul guy, I care a lot less about the poll and much more about the national tournament.  You get to prove your point on the court, and yes we will throw out the victories.  I also think that every team in the Top 25 deserves to be.  All those teams seem to be pretty dang good, but Murvul has beaten a lot of conference champions in their run.

1999 SCAC Champ Rose Hulman 
2000-SCAD, Hampden-Sydney ODAC runner up, regular season champ (Pool C bid)
2001-MacMurray SLIAC Champ
2002 Webster SLIAC Champ
2003 Mississippi College  ASC Tourney Champ
2004 Randy Mac ODAC Champ
2005 Methodist  USAC Champ
2006 Trinity TX  SCAC Champ
2007 Mary Hardin Baylor  ASC-West Co-champ (Pool C bid)

They have beaten some pretty good teams in that run and some good players.

Here is some historical perspective about playoff teams in the South.

1999 RHIT (Lost at Mississippi College in the second round, 67-53)
2006 Trinity (Lost at Mississippi College in the second round,  69-51)

From 1998-2007, the SCAC is only 7-13 (with two byes) in post-season play.  That includes a 2-1 with a bye by DePauw in 2002 and a 3-1 record by Trinity in 2005.  Throw out those games and the SCAC in only 2-11 with one bye in the last decade.

2001 Webster
2002 MacMurray

The SLIAC is "0-for the decade" in post-season play.  The good news about those games is that Maryville was the Pool B selection that was within "busing" radius, and so the NCAA could ship the SLIAC Pool A bid to Maryville in the first round.  In those days of the "away-home-bye" bracket, Maryville earned its only bye in 2004.

2003 -- The "#10 seed" Mississippi College Pool A was a down year for the ASC.  #7 seed Murvil won at home.

2004 -- #4 Seed Maryville TN lost to #8 seed John Carroll at Wooster, 76-74.  I think that this was the second best Murvil team.

2005 -- This was the year of "geographic proximity".  Maryville was seeded #5, but was where the NCAA could bus "#12-seed" Methodist" for the first round, and #7-seed Mississippi College for the second round.  I remember the hub-bub about being "disrespected" as the higher seed, but Maryville got an easy first round game to break the playoff ice, and then caught the Choctaws 497 miles away from home.  Mississippi College beat Maryville in Boydson Baird, 68-62.  The USA South is 4-10 with 2 byes in the last decade.  Only CNU has won a post-season game.

2006 -- Beat Trinity in Clinton MS, but lost to Mississippi College in the second round.

2007 -- Maryville beat UMHB (ASC-West Co-champ) but had to play those dreaded Choctaws in the Golden Dome for the second year in a row.  The ASC is 13-13 14 with 5 byes in the last decade.

I think that the 2000 Murvil team was the best of the batch.  They upset #2 HSC in Farmville in the second round!

Maryville is 10-9 with 1 bye over the last decade.

If anyone would like my Excel file on South Region playoffs, I will send it to them.   

Murvil is 10-9 with one bye over the last 10 playoffs!  Thanks and tip-of-the-hat to battered bard and +1!   (Duhhhhhh!  I mis-added!  )

[batteredbard]

Ralph,
When you use decade I'm guessing since 99-00 season and not last 10 years?
If you go by 10 MC's 97-98 team didn't go. The last nine teams have gone and won at least one game each trip. The 00 and 04 teams make sweet 16.
I dont have the year by year at hand (of course its in my other computer bag) but taking a stab Im thinking 10-9 over the last 10 years but I could be off trying to place the bye by memory. (this is why I take notes)

[narch]

Narch I think you're forgetting the AQ factor. No matter how well MC does in a given season there's a wait to see if its been good enough.

m'ville would have that same wait and see if it's been good enough feeling if they were to stump their toe in the new usasac conference tournament...but they'd have a MUCH deeper pool c to compete with and they probably wouldn't have as many wins to pad the resume...

[allsky7]

I agree with Narch on the murvul issue.

And with all due respect Pat, as a true Murvul guy, I care a lot less about the poll and much more about the national tournament.  You get to prove your point on the court, and yes we will throw out the victories.  I also think that every team in the Top 25 deserves to be.  All those teams seem to be pretty dang good, but Murvul has beaten a lot of conference champions in their run.

1999 SCAC Champ Rose Hulman 
2000-SCAD, Hampden-Sydney ODAC runner up, regular season champ (Pool C bid)
2001-MacMurray SLIAC Champ
2002 Webster SLIAC Champ
2003 Mississippi College  ASC Tourney Champ
2004 Randy Mac ODAC Champ
2005 Methodist  USAC Champ
2006 Trinity TX  SCAC Champ
2007 Mary Hardin Baylor  ASC-West Co-champ (Pool C bid)

They have beaten some pretty good teams in that run and some good players.

Here is some historical perspective about playoff teams in the South.

1999 RHIT (Lost at Mississippi College in the second round, 67-53)
2006 Trinity (Lost at Mississippi College in the second round,  69-51)

From 1998-2007, the SCAC is only 7-13 (with two byes) in post-season play.  That includes a 2-1 with a bye by DePauw in 2002 and a 3-1 record by Trinity in 2005.  Throw out those games and the SCAC in only 2-11 with one bye in the last decade.

2001 Webster
2002 MacMurray

The SLIAC is "0-for the decade" in post-season play.  The good news about those games is that Maryville was the Pool B selection that was within "busing" radius, and so the NCAA could ship the SLIAC Pool A bid to Maryville in the first round.  In those days of the "away-home-bye" bracket, Maryville earned its only bye in 2004.

2003 -- The "#10 seed" Mississippi College Pool A was a down year for the ASC.  #7 seed Murvil won at home.

2004 -- #4 Seed Maryville TN lost to #8 seed John Carroll at Wooster, 76-74.  I think that this was the second best Murvil team.

2005 -- This was the year of "geographic proximity".  Maryville was seeded #5, but was where the NCAA could bus "#12-seed" Methodist" for the first round, and #7-seed Mississippi College for the second round.  I remember the hub-bub about being "disrespected" as the higher seed, but Maryville got an easy first round game to break the playoff ice, and then caught the Choctaws 497 miles away from home.  Mississippi College beat Maryville in Boydson Baird, 68-62.  The USA South is 4-10 with 2 byes in the last decade.  Only CNU has won a post-season game.

2006 -- Beat Trinity in Clinton MS, but lost to Mississippi College in the second round.

2007 -- Maryville beat UMHB (ASC-West Co-champ) but had to play those dreaded Choctaws in the Golden Dome for the second year in a row.  The ASC is 13-13 14 with 5 byes in the last decade.

I think that the 2000 Murvil team was the best of the batch.  They upset #2 HSC in Farmville in the second round!

Maryville is 10-9 with 1 bye over the last decade.

If anyone would like my Excel file on South Region playoffs, I will send it to them.   

Murvil is 10-9 with one bye over the last 10 playoffs!  Thanks and tip-of-the-hat to battered bard and +1!   (Duhhhhhh!  I mis-added!  )

     Did they play Hampden-Sydney or Longwood?!! Longwood is in Farmville. Hampden-Sydney College is in Hampden-Sydney. Sorry Ralph....great post. Just one of my idiotic pet peeves.