MBB: Great South Athletic Conference

[old_lion]

Number 4 in the nation is assists per game! Only the teams scoring well over 100 per game are ahead of us. That's some great ball movement and unselfish play ...

It's too bad we had that poor passing day at LaGrange, where we only passed for 9 assists. I just can't imagine what was wrong with us.    I believe Bo had a zero assist day in LaGrange ... must be something in the water down there ... 

NCAA® Men's Basketball
Division III
Assists Per Game
Through Games 02/04/2007 

Rank Name GM W-L AST APG
1 Emory & Henry 20 12-8 427 21.4
2 Redlands 18 13-5 376 20.9
3 Grinnell 20 14-6 397 19.9
4 Piedmont 21 11-10 410 19.5
5 Amherst 23 23-0 448 19.5
6 Brockport St. 20 16-4 385 19.3
7 Wooster 21 18-3 396 18.9
8 Utica 20 17-3 377 18.9
9 Washington-St. Louis 19 16-3 356 18.7
10 MacMurray 16 9-7 298 18.6


NCAA® Men's Basketball
Division III
Scoring Offense
Through Games 02/04/2007

Rank Name GM W-L PTS PPG
1 Redlands 18 13-5 2162 120.1
2 Grinnell 20 14-6 2283 114.2
3 Emory & Henry 20 12-8 2223 111.2
4 Puget Sound 20 16-4 2004 100.2
5 MacMurray 16 9-7 1546 96.6
6 Lincoln (Pa.) 20 13-7 1830 91.5
7 Wooster 21 18-3 1891 90.0
8 Concordia-Austin 20 8-12 1796 89.8
9 Westminster (Pa.) 21 14-7 1847 88.0
10 Brockport St. 20 16-4 1759 88.0
11 Aurora 21 19-2 1799 85.7
12 Lesley  21 11-10 1780 84.8
13 Keene St. 21 17-4 1777 84.6
14 Wis. Lutheran 21 11-10 1770 84.3
15 Bethany (W.V.) 21 15-6 1764 84.0
16 St. Joseph's (L.I.) 19 13-6 1582 83.3
17 Bethel (Minn.) 20 14-6 1662 83.1
18 Amherst 23 23-0 1910 83.0
19 Oglethorpe 20 12-8 1658 82.9
20 Middlebury 21 13-8 1739 82.8
21 Piedmont 21 11-10 1730 82.4

[coachwgh]

I am always on my hands and knees begging for someone to stop sombody from the other team and never do it.  I am about to stop asking so nicely and raise my voice.  
I like everyone's view on POY.  What if it was a one on one tournament to decide the winner?  2 out of 3, make it take it, 1's and 2's to 12

[allsky7]

IMHO, I think it is Ok to give the POY award to someone that is not on the top team in the conference. BUT...I think their stats (and intangibles?) have to rise about the crowd. If it is borderline, then give it to the guy on the top team. To the victor go the spoils.   
I guess too it depends on what the criteria are for making the selection.  The MVP is not always the best player statistically.

Well said, allsky. I agree on both counts, especially if you throw the word, intangibles, in there.

    Good point on the intangibles. A hard thing to measure quantitatively.
    I always use my HS baseball team as a good example of the MVP vs Best or Most Outstanding Player. Player X (shortstop, best athlete on the team by far, signed with Clemson) Player Y ( 30 and 1 as a HS pitcher, good bat, good athlete but not same caliber as player X. ) Would we as a team have had the success we had without player X?....probably not. Would we as a team have had the same success without player Y?....ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, NO WAY!!! Without player X, we are not the same team but still a pretty darn good team. Without player Y, we are an average ball club.
     Relating it back to the GSAC POY.....guess it depends on your measuring stick.  8)
     Sorry for the baseball analogy but that's my gig!! 

[Spencer Beaty]

that is a pretty impressive stat about the assists for piedmont. if i do say so myself.  Back in the day i was a really assist machine.

[old_lion]

 I am about to stop asking so nicely and raise my voice.  

I hear you, Coach. I seem to remember a couple of instances in Saturday's game when your voice (and blood pressure) may have gone up just a tad. 

You are the King of Intensity! I got no problem with that ... it's a game of emotion.

[scottiedoug]

When you figure that Emory and Henry and Grinnell run "the system" (not sure about Redlands), whereas Piedmont still plays what we recognize as basketball, the assist figures really are impressive.  OldLion's observation that the won-loss problem at Piedmont has more to do with who they do not have than with who they do have makes sense to me.

Are we talking about an award called Most Valuable Player or Player of the Year?  Seems to me that without agreeing what we are calling it (and meaning what it says) we will not ever agree about this Mason-Golden-Baldwin-Hairston question.  And "Best Player" is another thing (maybe everwho would win the one on one tournament?)

Nice first post for lionfan!!  Welcome! 

[mattgrubb]

heres the deal, Randy Lambert wins the one on one tournament, nice try haynes.  Just ask Cazzie russell.

Secondly, if you all think that Hairston, Baldwin, or anyone else would average half the stats they do for their team, then you are wrong.  Would Baldwin, hairston, or render even start for maryville, not at the 5 for sure, remember Bobby is a preseason all american and don't punish him b/c he has a great, i said it, great player at the point.  Bobby or Bo average at least 20 pts per game for PC and HC, LC has more depth so players share the stats. Players at Maryville share the ball, it is hard to average more than 15 a game at MC in lambert's system

Let me give you some examples of former GSAC POY's or 1st team all south performers who averaged 15 a game

Chris Housewright, no gsac team has or ever will have a guy to compare to him, stop now there is no argument there, he was the best.  14.8 ppg
Sidney Ellis, about 15 a game, oh yeah, he was a 2 time all american and one of the 76 best players D3 has ever seen  2 time POY
Josh Tummel, he was more talented than both those guys, POY, averaged just over 15 a game
matt Ennen, POY, average 12 points a game as a senoir, and no one could stop him in the gsac
Brent Watts, 17 a game, POY, and only spencer Beaty could stop him

Ask yourselves this question, Would Bradley Blair start on any other GSAC team?
you all need to stop reaching for this award it ain't that great, it is the All south award that you want and if you are lucky you can even get the all american, i will tell you this, Sid's awards look great in the MC trophy case

Get over your favorite player, the best play for maryville and next year you all will be hatin' on Alex Bowers

[old_lion]

Lagrange's Render and Lawerence could go into this talk but their in conference numbers are not great and that was my main focus with this argument.  

Still to come an answer to the question posed earlier why is Piedmont losing?

Lionfan, I second Doug's welcome. It's always nice to have another thoughtful poster on board. But, I want to ask you to rethink one aspect of your logic ... the focus on "conference only" stats. It's not like we are in a "real conference" where we are playing 16 or 18 conference games.

Below is an earlier elaboration on the subject. You'll like it, allsky ...there's a baseball analogy. 

I know a lot of people keep touting the conference stats only, over the full season stats... but in scientific, statistical terms, 6 games is just too small of a sample to produce meaningful, statistically valid results. Consider the concept in baseball terms ... a 4 game series might produce several .500 hitters, or Ted Williams might go 2 for 20 ... but as a realistic indication of the players true value, it's meaningless ... it's just too small of a population of data to draw any valid conclusions ... the same logic should prevail here.

Also, I'm eagerly awaiting your thoughts on the Piedmont question ... Although, I think I've got it figured out ... It's our GM's fault. Obviously, we should have traded for Blair and/or Maddox in the off season.  8) Where is John Schuerholz when you need him? 

[colincondi]

Old Lion,

I don't want this to come off as negative, but I'm curious as to what Piedmont's assist average is at home and on the road, and against DIII competition and against the Christian schools...  the averages could be pretty close at home and away, and pretty close against DIII and Christian schools.  I honestly don't know... just curious.  Since you are the "KING OF ALL STATS", I thought you might could find those #'s.  If they are pretty consistent, then I am impressed as well.  If they are not, well, assists are different than points or rebounds or shots attempted in that sometimes they can be a little more subjective and come down to who is doing the stats.  Just a thought...

That being said, I don't think there are many better twosomes than Baldwin and Green... Bobby and Bo might  have them by a nose.  I would have to say that Baldwin is one of the best DIII players I have seen this year.  I think he is the best player in the conference.  That being said, I agree with other posters that his #'s are inflated because he plays for Piedmont as opposed to Maryville.  Put him on Maryville and his #'s go down considerably, just as Bobby's would go up at Piedmont.  So stats don't tell the entire story.  Even though I just said I think he's the best player, I'm not sure he deserves POY since his team is probably only going to win 2 conference games.  I definitely don't think Hairston deserves POY, as good as he is.  His team is probably going to finish 0-6 and has won three games all year.  Right now, I've got a toss-up between Bobby and Baldwin, with the last couple of weeks possibly deciding it.

You did points per shot for players... how about for teams?  In conference?  South Region?  Nation?  I wonder where Piedmont falls?

[old_lion]

Secondly, if you all think that Hairston, Baldwin, or anyone else would average half the stats they do for their team, then you are wrong.  (4)Would Baldwin, hairston, or render even start for maryville, not at the 5 for sure, remember Bobby is a preseason all american and don't punish him b/c he has a great, i said it, great player at the point.  Bobby or Bo average at least 20 pts per game for PC and HC, (1) LC has more depth so players share the stats. (2) Players at Maryville share the ball, (3) it is hard to average more than 15 a game at MC in lambert's system
Ask yourselves this question, (5)Would Bradley Blair start on any other GSAC team?
you all need to stop reaching for this award it ain't that great, it is the All south award that you want and if you are lucky you can even get the all american, i will tell you this, Sid's awards look great in the MC trophy case

Get over your favorite player, the best play for maryville and (6) next year you all will be hatin' on Alex Bowers

Good post! But a few comments ...

(1) True last year, but not this year ... their "big 3" are getting their minutes this year. I think Coach Haynes' decision to keep his best players on the floor more is one of the keys to LC's improvement.
MINUTES PLAYED
## Player-Team               Cl  G Minutes  Avg/G
-------------------------------------------------
1.Antoine Maddox-LC........ SR 21     715  34.05
2.Hairston, Cole-HC........ SR 21     709  33.76
3.Green, Jake-PC...........    21     686  32.67
4.Baldwin, Jake-PC.........    21     653  31.10
5.Mason, Bo-MC.............    20     607  30.35
6.Bradley, Quinn-MC........    20     588  29.40
7.Miller, Heath-HC......... FR 21     611  29.10
8.Whitlock, Tyler-PC.......    21     608  28.95
9.Adams, Mike-PC...........    21     601  28.62
10.Robby Lawrence-LC........ SR 18     510  28.33
11.Demetris Render-LC....... JR 21     558  26.57

(2) True, but so do we ... 4th in the nation in apg, baby!

(3) Good point ... minutes are harder to come by at Murvul ... maybe that's why Bo and Bradley decided to become "volume shooters". 

(4) Now you're just talking crazy.  Obviously, Lambert's no fool ... I think he could find a spot for either of them. Both of those guys are very versatile, they can play outside, as well as inside. I bet he could find more than a few minutes for Render too.

(5) Heck, yeah! He'd be the missing link for us. Of course we'll never know, but I'm betting for us, he would have averaged at least 15 and 8, Green (with 2 big finishers inside) would have averaged close to 10 apg, and we damn sure wouldn't be talking about Piedmont's "losing" problem. But that's just my opinion ...  I could be wrong.

(6) Absolutely, I'm already on the "Bowers bandwagon". He'd be the first perimeter player I'd take from Murvul's roster. He gets a lot done .. very efficiently. Hey, no disrespect to Bo ... obviously, he's a good player. I just prefer Bower's style.

[Spencer Beaty]

Let me post something serious.  I hate this POY debate.  It takes five to win; while i do agree that Green and Hairston would probably play significant minutes for MC they would neither one average double digits.  Randy has a system and it works.  On the other hand if you put Bowers on another team I dont think he does as well.  Also Beaty was a five time GSAC POY and averaged 45 ppg.

[Pat Coleman]

Old Lion,

I don't want this to come off as negative, but I'm curious as to what Piedmont's assist average is at home and on the road, and against DIII competition and against the Christian schools...  the averages could be pretty close at home and away, and pretty close against DIII and Christian schools. 

After a quick check of the stats, Piedmont credits itself with assists on 70% of its baskets at home. Away from home, Piedmont gets credited with assists on 60% of its baskets.

[mattgrubb]

Beaty was also a part of 8 NCAA tournament teams as a player, think about it


Seriously though, all that matters is the "W"

[old_lion]

Old Lion,

I don't want this to come off as negative, but I'm curious as to what Piedmont's assist average is at home and on the road, and against DIII competition and against the Christian schools...  the averages could be pretty close at home and away, and pretty close against DIII and Christian schools. 

After a quick check of the stats, Piedmont credits itself with assists on 70% of its baskets at home. Away from home, Piedmont gets credited with assists on 60% of its baskets.

Close ... Actually, the two games at Toccoa were technically "home" games. It was our tourney, done by our staff ... our gym was unavailable that weekend.

The correct numbers are ...

Away             Home
FGs Ast %    FGs Ast %
307 184 60% 330 226 68%

We are very fortunate to have a stat guy who is conscientious about all the stats ... there are a few stat folks out there who appear to think they have done their job if they can get the points to add up. Re trying to give those "less than stellar" stat folks the benefit of the doubt ... I think maybe sometimes, especially in a fast paced game, they just get behind ... and never get around to recording the assist. At least I hope it's that, as opposed to apathy.

As an old PG, I appreciate our guy's conscientiousness re the "other stats" ... assists, steals, rebounds, etc. In addidtion to our good stat guy, I think you can also attribute some of the 68/60 discrepancy to the fact that we've played some of our weaker opponents at home. The passing lanes are definitely not as open against the better teams.

And ... I would be remiss at this point if I didn't give a "shout out" to the stat crew at Huntingdon. At least for the one game against us, they were much improved over prior seasons. We've been fortunate to have several very good stat people on the road this year ... the ones at Ferrum, NC Wesleyan, and Suwanee, immediately come to mind.

[old_lion]

Old Lion,

I don't want this to come off as negative, but I'm curious as to what Piedmont's assist average is at home and on the road, and against DIII competition and against the Christian schools...  the averages could be pretty close at home and away, and pretty close against DIII and Christian schools.  I honestly don't know... just curious.  Since you are the "KING OF ALL STATS", I thought you might could find those #'s.  If they are pretty consistent, then I am impressed as well.  If they are not, well, assists are different than points or rebounds or shots attempted in that sometimes they can be a little more subjective and come down to who is doing the stats.  Just a thought...

That being said, I don't think there are many better twosomes than Baldwin and Green... Bobby and Bo might  have them by a nose.  I would have to say that Baldwin is one of the best DIII players I have seen this year.  I think he is the best player in the conference.  That being said, I agree with other posters that his #'s are inflated because he plays for Piedmont as opposed to Maryville.  Put him on Maryville and his #'s go down considerably, just as Bobby's would go up at Piedmont.  So stats don't tell the entire story.  Even though I just said I think he's the best player, I'm not sure he deserves POY since his team is probably only going to win 2 conference games.  I definitely don't think Hairston deserves POY, as good as he is.  His team is probably going to finish 0-6 and has won three games all year.  Right now, I've got a toss-up between Bobby and Baldwin, with the last couple of weeks possibly deciding it.

You did points per shot for players... how about for teams?  In conference?  South Region?  Nation?  I wonder where Piedmont falls?

Mr/Ms SecState, (great name, by the way) ... no negativity taken ...

As you might imagine, all the stats get a little pumped up against the weaker teams ... the team stats anyway ...the starter's stats tend to take a beating because they play a lot less ... I imagine that's pretty much how it works for most teams. For our assists, it works out to about 18 per game in our 16 games against DIII opponents and a little over 24 per game in the other 5 games.

I agree that stats never tell the entire story. But remember, there are always at least two sides to every issue ... For instance, on some teams, certain guys have to carry more of the load so you'd expect them to do more ... BUT, on the other hand, they also have less help, other teams are keying on them, so it's more difficult to do more. Lots of variables to consider ...

Re your last question re PPS ... that's too big of a project even for a stat geek like me.