MBB: Great South Athletic Conference

scottiedoug · March 05, 2007, 11:11:48 PM

t_money: Thanks. Nice words. I saw VAWes in the ODAC quarterfinals and they are impressive. And I did not see MissCollege this year. But if what I hear and infer about the Choctaws is close, I think y'all may do ok. You have the size to deal with Adair, who is quite good, and the quickness to stay all over Ton Ton, who will ruin you if you let him shoot.
They are well coached and know what they are trying to do, but so are your players. I would like to see it!

This juco thing is a dilemma for me. A lot of the basics of D3 to me include a strong emphasis on the going to college part of college, as distinguished from the move around to play ball part of college. But juco kids deserve to get a 4 year degree and by definition have to transfer somewhere. Might as well be Maryville as Mississippi.

I think it is accurate to say that the juco's around Maryville are not academically easy preparation for Maryville, and the fact that people go to jucos in the first place often means they do not have the means to pay for Maryville without a lot of scholarship help, which help they must not have been able to line up or they might have gone there in the first place.

So we are more likely to get Bradley Blair from another 4 year school where he was not having a good time than Walden Buttram from a juco in Alabama.

Sure would like some big people from somewhere, though.

Ralph Turner · March 05, 2007, 11:31:46 PM

QuoteI think it is accurate to say that the juco's around Maryville are not academically easy preparation for Maryville, and the fact that people go to jucos in the first place often means they do not have the means to pay for Maryville without a lot of scholarship help, which help they must not have been able to line up or they might have gone there in the first place.

So we are more likely to get Bradley Blair from another 4 year school where he was not having a good time than Walden Buttram from a juco in Alabama.

McMurry has gotten a little bit of both. Hopefully by the time a player is 20-21, he has figured out that he needs to get his education. The maturity thing is important for Coach Holmes. The mature players will blend better in his system. We do get plenty of first generation college kids, tho'. They are some inspiring people!

Ralph Turner · March 05, 2007, 11:33:16 PM

There are fewer 4-year schools in Mississippi than Tennessee tho'. That is one factor.

(Have we not discussed this before?

)

Yes, I found it! click here

mattgrubb · March 06, 2007, 10:04:12 AM

The road scenario does make it much more difficult
I will say in TN the NAIA schools really plunder a lot of good players from Maryville and Coach Lambert, like a Bradley Blair who only lasts 1 season at an NAIA school and then leaves

I have known several players that go to these NAIA schools for the scholarships and the end up at UT b/c they did not like the school, but if they would have gone to Maryville they would have had a different experience

Ralph Turner · March 06, 2007, 10:59:32 AM

Matt, I think that there is a different dynamic in D3. The coach in D3 is there to help the student-athlete get his/her college degree and the coach's won-loss record is secondary to graduation rates and retention. The loss of student-athlete to the university that has invested assets in that student-athlete is felt in the entire institution.

This is a very fine line, but I think that the "athletic scholarship mentality" grates on the "good student/'marginal athletic scholarship' athlete". Bradley Blair is never gonna play in the NBA, but he has an incredible chance at a great education. In D3 Coach Lambert and every other good D3 coach is working on the retention, the grades, even the "FASFA forms" to get that student graduated. Whether that student is "taking up an athletic scholarship"* is the farthest thing from their minds.

*The premise behind the 1960's book about University of Texas Longhorn football, Meat on the Hoof.

scottiedoug · March 06, 2007, 12:20:09 PM

Ralph: If we could not talk about stuff we've talked about before, the boards would be short! In one of the articles in local papers when Lambert reached his 500th win, it was mentioned that the graduation rate of his players over 20-some years is above 95% That is as important as the 500 wins for a D3 program, in my opinion.

narch · March 06, 2007, 01:30:17 PM

Quote from: old_lion on March 05, 2007, 02:33:52 PMIt appears Miss College has a recruiting advantage over most D3 schools that I know anything about.

I remember earlier in the season, Narch was commenting on how unusual it was for Greensboro to have 4 key transfers this year ... well GC is nothing, in that regard, compared to Miss. They have an informative web site ... check this out ...

http://www.gochoctaws.com/sports/mbball/2006-07Stats/teamcume.htm
http://www.gochoctaws.com/roster.asp?path=mbball

It appears that 3 or their starters and 8 of their top 11, are transfers ... either from JUCO or other colleges ... and 3 of them are 6'7 or taller. Must be nice ...

I sure would like to know how they are able to get that many transfers. I know they aren't the most expensive school around ... but, they aren't cheap ... and they are D3 (no athletic scholarships, right?).

oldlion - g'boro has a total of 8 transfers on their roster of 14, with 4 juco's that were brought in this year from florida juco programs...looks like misscoll has 9 transfers on their roster of 19...either way, i simply can't comprehend it, although it makes more sense in miss with the number of basketball playing juco's

in my mind, juco kids and d3 athletics aren't a good fit, but maybe it's different in a state like mississippi...around these parts a kid typically goes the juco route because

a.) he didn't have the grades/scores to be admitted to a 4 year school and didn't meet ncaa initial eligibility requirements for a d1 or d2 program and wants to play at that level or

b.) he thinks (or is being told) that with a little further development, he'll get a d1 or d2 scholarship after a couple of years of juco ball...generally speaking, if a kid is good enough to start for a juco program, he's generally good enough to get a d2 scholarship, at the very least, and convincing that kid to turn down an athletic scholarship is generally VERY difficult...that's WHY he went to the juco in the first place

maybe mississippi juco's are different...maybe they have a lot of d3 talent on their rosters...the mere fact that there are so many with athletic programs indicates that they're different from anything i'm familiar with in md/va/nc/sc/ga/fl (which are the primary recruiting territories for mu) - these states have just a handful of juco's with athletic programs, and most of their players have pretty legit athletic scholarship prospects or they've languished on the end of a juco bench for 2 years and aren't noticed by the d3's and/or decide to just "be a student" at xyz public university

Ralph Turner · March 06, 2007, 04:24:57 PM

QuoteThere are fewer 4-year schools in Mississippi than Tennessee tho'. That is one factor.

(Have we not discussed this before? )

Yes, I found it! click here

Narch, I think that Mississippi is different.

mattgrubb · March 06, 2007, 05:32:57 PM

good point narch
of all the juco kids i have known in TN maybe 3 have been a "good" fit for a D3 program

batteredbard · March 06, 2007, 06:50:20 PM

Side note of fun
While I was very impressed with the Choctaws web site it did have several frustrating flaws. The box score of the first round MC-MH-B game came very late and the running stats link for the game led you to the Choctaws game after it started. The second round didnt get out a boxscore until Sunday afternoon.
While I adapted, thank you again Ralph for providing such resources, not every one did. The regional daily paper in East TN, that I will not name, used last year's second round game box score as the basis for their summary of this year's game in Sunday's paper.
I fell out of my chair at the office laughing when it was pointed out -- I do have one mean bone in my body it seems.

I didn't get to see it listed to george and Jimmy on BCR but was there really that noticable a difference between what constituted a foul Friday night and what it took Sat night?

Spencer Beaty · March 06, 2007, 09:11:16 PM

I would like to take some time to thank Bobby and Bradley

Bobby: I know we made fun of you for your weight but you are a player. One of the best Scots I have seen. Always positive and knew his limits. Thanks Bob.

Brad: Best 6th man in MC history if you ask me. Became a better teammate and defender in the last 2 years. great scorer, if he had been at MC 4 years he would have been much better.

John_Wesley · March 07, 2007, 02:47:06 AM

Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 06, 2007, 10:59:32 AM
Matt, I think that there is a different dynamic in D3. The coach in D3 is there to help the student-athlete get his/her college degree and the coach's won-loss record is secondary to graduation rates and retention. The loss of student-athlete to the university that has invested assets in that student-athlete is felt in the entire institution.

This is a very fine line, but I think that the "athletic scholarship mentality" grates on the "good student/'marginal athletic scholarship' athlete". Bradley Blair is never gonna play in the NBA, but he has an incredible chance at a great education. In D3 Coach Lambert and every other good D3 coach is working on the retention, the grades, even the "FASFA forms" to get that student graduated. Whether that student is "taking up an athletic scholarship"* is the farthest thing from their minds.

*The premise behind the 1960's book about University of Texas Longhorn football, Meat on the Hoof.

Hey Ralph,

Congrats to MC on such a great season. I think the dynamic is even greater in the NCCAA. Take a team like Wesley...we don't have the degree programs to offer a to attract the players just off the fringe of scholarship quality. That is why we had issues against some teams this year...depth. We have a few great players but lack the depth to compete week in and week out. We beat MC when we were fresh but when we played 5 road games against NAIA D1 and NCAA D3 schools in 7 days we lost 4 of them.

We beat SouthEastern U to win our regional tourney, and are playing in the NCCAA national tourney this week so wish us luck! We are the 1 seed.

mattgrubb · March 07, 2007, 10:29:38 AM

thanks to Bobby and Bradley

Bobby: an interesting character and a great player, saw many victories in his day and drew a lot of attention, he made all of his teammates better by just being on the floor, good luck

Bradley: Always be remembered for beating Carson Newman without Bobby and when Monte went down early, really stepped his game up as his career progressed, best 6th man ever and really demonstrated his unselfishness when he was the best center for any other team i saw him play against

congrats and welcome to the alumni game.

scottiedoug · March 07, 2007, 11:11:04 PM

Marcus has written an interesting piece in the Maryville Daily Times about Maryville's future without Bobby and Bradley and specifically about looking to the juco ranks for big people next year:

http://www.thedailytimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070307/SPORTS/703070302

old_lion · March 08, 2007, 10:44:34 AM

Back to an old sore subject ... how chicksh*t it was of the "Great" (yeah, right) South to name only 8 guys on the all conference team/teams or whatever ...

Check out the Big East ... 11 on the "first" team, 10 on the "second" team, and 7 honorable mention ...
http://pittsburghpanthers.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030507aaa.html

What's the deal these days ... did everyone forget how to count?

I don't care how many teams you have in your conference, it seems to me you could pick all-conference "teams" in groups of five? How difficult would that be?

If you want to recognize 25 guys ... pick a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th team ... it's not rocket science.

On the other hand, if you can only muster the will to pick 8 guys ... then come right out and say it ... we're too half-a$$ed to do it like a real conference would.

Or ... just be honest ... say we were too lazy and/or incompetent to put any real effort into it ... so we just listed the top scorers.

Or ... just don't bother ... I see no need in emphasizing the "chicken sh*tedness" of the GSAC.