MBB: Great South Athletic Conference

[old_lion]

old_lion,

I'd say that Professor Olson pretty thoroughly tipped his hand with the grotesque stereotypes (1) in the final paragraph.  Are you sure this guy is "Joe the Law Professor" and not "Joe the (unlicensed) Plumber"?

And while Professor Tyler's theory sounds plausible in the abstract, it alas has the drawback of being historically completely false.  I believe there are 3 countries that have surpassed the 200-year limit on democracies, and I don't recall hearing about the dictatorships in Iceland, Switzerland, or the U. S.   (2)
As to the "somewhere between complacency and apathy" characterization - sure didn't feel that way last Tuesday! (3)

(1) Even though there some grains of truth in there somewhere, those were some unpleasent stereotypes.  But remember, that is sort of what stereotype means ... something that is frequently, but not always true ... the problems arise when ignorant people believe them to always be true ... you know like "white men can't jump" ... that stereotype didn't come about for no reason, but it's not always true ... 

(2) The Scottish guy in 1787 said averaged about 200 years ... at that point he didn't know how long we were going to last  ... I certainly hope it's a heck of a lot longer than that.  But there is no question, we are at that point where "voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury".  We have beaten the average ... but based on some disturbing trends, I am seriously concerned as to how long we can continue to do so.

(3) Well to paraphrase one of your infamous Blue Boys, Slick Willy ... I'd say that would have to depend on what your definition of "complacency and apathy" is.  Personally, I find it pretty damn complacent and apathetic that so many voters voted primarily on "he's going to give me something for nothing and cut taxes on 95% of us" without bothering to think a little deeper as to how implausable that is ... and how catastophic the ramifications could be, if he actually did it.  It's not that difficult to look at the example of Western Europe.

[KnoxCounty22]

Damn Old Lion....in your son's words "You just big timed that man."


There will be 14 players at the alumni game. Glenn and Neeley have done a really good job making this alumni game a first class event. Hope to see you in Demorest. Bring the stat book.

Hope the Lions do well at Mercer on Friday.

[Mr. Ypsi]

old_lion,

I'd say that Professor Olson pretty thoroughly tipped his hand with the grotesque stereotypes (1) in the final paragraph.  Are you sure this guy is "Joe the Law Professor" and not "Joe the (unlicensed) Plumber"?

And while Professor Tyler's theory sounds plausible in the abstract, it alas has the drawback of being historically completely false.  I believe there are 3 countries that have surpassed the 200-year limit on democracies, and I don't recall hearing about the dictatorships in Iceland, Switzerland, or the U. S.   (2)
As to the "somewhere between complacency and apathy" characterization - sure didn't feel that way last Tuesday! (3)

(1) Even though there some grains of truth in there somewhere, those were some unpleasent stereotypes.  But remember, that is sort of what stereotype means ... something that is frequently, but not always true ... the problems arise when ignorant people believe them to always be true ... you know like "white men can't jump" ... that stereotype didn't come about for no reason, but it's not always true ... 

(2) The Scottish guy in 1787 said averaged about 200 years ... at that point he didn't know how long we were going to last  ... I certainly hope it's a heck of a lot longer than that.  But there is no question, we are at that point where "voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury".  We have beaten the average ... but based on some disturbing trends, I am seriously concerned as to how long we can continue to do so.

(3) Well to paraphrase one of your infamous Blue Boys, Slick Willy ... I'd say that would have to depend on what your definition of "complacency and apathy" is.  Personally, I find it pretty damn complacent and apathetic that so many voters voted primarily on "he's going to give me something for nothing and cut taxes on 95% of us" without bothering to think a little deeper as to how implausable that is ... and how catastophic the ramifications could be, if he actually did it.  It's not that difficult to look at the example of Western Europe.

As bball season is about to launch for real, this will be my last reply on the board, lest others get too offended.  But I'd love to continue the conversation by PM if you wish.

1.  His stereotypes go beyond "something that is frequently, but not always true" into the realm of outright dishonesty.  Halliburton, et. al., and corporate farmers feed at the public trough beyond the wildest dreams of mothers on food stamps.  To pretend that blue areas are 'government dependent' while red areas are 'taxpaying citizens' is not only grossly insulting, but fraudulent.

2.  An 'average' of 200 years requires some examples under 200 if I've already provided examples over 200.  And for the life of me I cannot think of ANY examples of 'real' democracies which have gone to dictatorship.  The Weimar Republic doesn't really qualify since Germany had no established tradition of democracy when Hitler (ironically) was democratically elected.  Numerous Latin American countries have bounced back and forth, since democratic culture had never really been established.  Now it is VERY hard to imagine any western European or SOME Latin countries (Chile, Brazil, etc.) going back to dictatorship.  I simply can't come up with a single example of a country which has truly established a democratic culture which has ever gone to dictatorship.

3.  Can you provide ANY evidence that 'so many voters voted primarily on "he's going to give me something for nothing and cut taxes on 95% of us"'?  I don't doubt that a few did (just as a few simply could not bring themselves to vote for a 'colored boy'), but 'so many'?  What I saw was excitement and hope, not complacency and apathy.

[Spencer Beaty]

GO SCOTS

[old_lion]

Mr Y,

As I told you initially ...

I don't know how much you'll agree with ... heck, I don't know how much I agree with ... but it certainly is thought provoking.   

Your comment sums it up ...

Professor Tyler's theory sounds plausible in the abstract

That's enough to scare the heck out of me.

I notice you don't seem to want to address the example of Western Europe ... much of which is about a generation ahead of is in many of the fiscal policies/ entitlement programs currently being promoted by the Democrats ... nothing abstract about that.

And finally your comment ...

as a few simply could not bring themselves to vote for a 'colored boy'

Really ... I'm surprised you went there.  On a personal note, few things irk me more than the arbitrary playing of the race card.  I wonder how much of that we'll have to endure over the next 4 years.

I don't see this election as a race issue.  I see it as a "lemming issue".  Many easily lead, uninformed voters (black, white, and others) simply followed the crowd to promises of something for nothing.   

[scottiedoug]

I have managed to stay out of this but my friend Old_Lion your last post makes that impossible.  This part:

Many easily lead, uninformed voters (black, white, and others) simply followed the crowd to promises of something for nothing.   Sad

That is insulting and without evidence.  When exactly did Mr. Obama promise anybody "something for nothing?"  Or is a tax cut by itself "something for nothing?"  If so, then it is also "something for nothing" for people with high incomes to "get" to "keep" the "something for nothing" tax cuts the Bushies engineered for them, so when any such person voted for McCain, it would also have been for a promise of something for nothing.

I guess there are some people who vote based on their own narrow self-interests but most people I know vote for what they think will make this a better world.

[old_lion]

Wow!

Is it something for nothing for "for people to get to keep the money they earned"?

Wow ... I can't find the words to address that question ... 

When exactly did Mr. Obama promise anybody "something for nothing?"  Or is a tax cut by itself "something for nothing?" 

In my book, more benefits for everyone + lower taxes on 95% of us (BTW, that's includes no income taxes at all on 40% or so) ... that equates to "something for nothing" for many, many people who are apparently too uninformed, short-sighted, apathetic, or illogical (pick as many as you'd like) to realize "that dog won't hunt" over the long run.

Ever heard of David Walker, former Comptroller General?  He is not a Republican or a Democrat ... but he has some common sense and apparently, he can do math.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/28/business/main2135398.shtml

One of the reasons we've always been able to deficit spend is because our economy has always been so strong and stable.  In other words, the oil sheiks, the Chinese, etc. , etc.  have always been willing to park capital here ... lend us money by buying our bonds, and thus finance that deficit spending.  What are we going to do if/when they decide maybe the US isn't the best place in the world for them to park their money?

Our long term fiscal prospects are already choking on trillions on unfunded entitlement programs ... that is before cutting taxes on 95% of us, taxing the most productive segments of our society into oblivion, and loading us up with even more entitlement programs  ... does any prudent person really think that has a snow ball's chance in hell of working.  Again, much of Western Europe is years ahead of us on a similar path ... it ain't working!

I've always heard you can learn a lot from mistakes ... but, they don't have to all be yours. It is much less painful, if you can keep your head up, pay attention to what is going on around you, and learn from other's mistakes occasionally.   

most people I know vote for what they think will make this a better world.

You are a good guy ... and I'm sure many of the people you know are quality people as well.  I have no doubt you believe that.  We'll have to agree to disagree.  I respectfully suggest you review your 1980s history (the great Soviet socialist experiment failed) and pay closer attention to how socialism is currently working out around the world. 

[scottiedoug]

As you said, my friend, "We'll have to agree to disagree."

[Mr. Ypsi]

Mr Y,

I notice you don't seem to want to address the example of Western Europe ... much of which is about a generation ahead of is in many of the fiscal policies/ entitlement programs currently being promoted by the Democrats ... nothing abstract about that.

And finally your comment ...

as a few simply could not bring themselves to vote for a 'colored boy'

Really ... I'm surprised you went there.  On a personal note, few things irk me more than the arbitrary playing of the race card.  I wonder how much of that we'll have to endure over the next 4 years.

I don't see this election as a race issue.  I see it as a "lemming issue".  Many easily lead, uninformed voters (black, white, and others) simply followed the crowd to promises of something for nothing.   

One final post to clarify things I was apparently unclear on.

I didn't address Western Europe because the context was specifically democracies falling into dictatorship.  You may view their 'social democracies' with disdain, but do you genuinely think any of them are ripe for dictatorship in any foreseeable future?

As to playing the 'race card' - that was certainly NOT my intent (perhaps a different example would have been wiser ).  My intent was to illustrate that SOME people will always vote for 'improper' reasons (and there is no denying that SOME people did not vote for Obama because of his race - I've seen several such on tape and personally heard at least three say so; in fairness, there were also SOME people who voted FOR Obama because of his race).  Personally, I found your 'lemming issue' remark at least as insulting as 'the race card' - might it be possible that 'not easily led, informed' voters thought that the seemingly unflappable Obama was better suited for the job than the McCain who increasingly seemed like a 'grumpy old man' towards the end?

[BTW, I thought McCain's concession speech was the most gracious such speech I've ever seen.  THAT was the McCain I would have strongly considered voting for in 2000.]

[KnoxCounty22]

Old Lion,

The Statue of Liberty and her torch are coming down and Aunt Jemima and a drumstick are on its way to the top.

[old_lion]

The Statue of Liberty and her torch are coming down and Aunt Jemima and a drumstick are on its way to the top.

Definitely, not cool ... race is not a factor in this discussion!

[KnoxCounty22]

I understand that race wasn't a factor in your discussion.  I was just informing you of a comment I heard on Rush Limbaugh's radio talk show.

Don't you like fried chicken and syrup? Not together of course. I do recall you putting a load of butter on your pancakes.

[scottiedoug]

MC's Alex Bowers signs with an ABA team.  This is great for him, the Scots, and the GSAC.

http://www.maryvillecollege.edu/athletics/news-detail.asp?sportNameID=5&id=2720

KnoxCounty22's parroting Limbaugh, on the other hand, makes me cringe to think this is what a GSAC education produces.

[old_lion]

From Mr. Ypsi:

I didn't address Western Europe because the context was specifically democracies falling into dictatorship.  You may view their 'social democracies' with disdain, but do you genuinely think any of them are ripe for dictatorship in any foreseeable future?

I don't really have an opinion regarding dictators ... that's not my concern.  I told you I don't necessarily agree with everything the guy from the 1700s had to say.  But I do think it's instructive to try to learn from mistakes made in the past ... to me the primary issue is, once you get to the point that the masses can vote themselves benefits ... and you have politicians who pander to that mind set ... and everyone involved mindlessly ignores the long-term repercussions ... well, we're there ... and that ain't good.  Surely, you can't disagree with that?

I most certainly do view their 'social democracies' with disdain!  I find it incomprehensible that so many in this country seem perfectly willing to head off down (down, being the operative direction  ) the same path. BTW, I have several friends who were originally from Europe, but consciously made the decision to move to this country.  You should hear their views on the subject.

From Mr. Ypsi:

Personally, I found your 'lemming issue' remark at least as insulting as 'the race card'

I wasn't insulted. I don't think "insulting" is the issue ... I think "relevance" is.

IMHO, the "lemming analogy" is extremely relevant ... IMHO, this past election was swung by a lot of uniformed voters
enthusiastically "going with the flow" without having any idea, really any concern for, what's at the bottom of that cliff they are jumping off of.  But, as Dennis Miller says, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong".

By contrast, IMHO, race is not a factor in this discussion!

[old_lion]

MC's Alex Bowers signs with an ABA team.  This is great for him, the Scots, and the GSAC.

Congrats to Bowers!  I thought he was probably the most complete player in the gsac last year.