Pool C

[magicman]

pabegg,

You mention in your updated rankings "the next set of teams down to #39 Chicago are on the bubble" but you're showing Rhode Island College as #39. #40 is Albion and Chcago is #41. If Chicago is in fact #39 would they be the C 15?

[Knightstalker]

The NJAC went to the two division format a few years ago, they play the other four teams in their division twice and the teams from the other division once for a total of 13 conference games.  This was done so the schools could schedule more OOC regional games and Rowan could load up on Bible Colleges.

[Titan Q]

What it comes down to is this:  If OWP and OOWP are only used for tiebreakers to rank teams in-region (and is pretty much not used in the south or west), then I guess it is better than using a coinflip. 

However, if there is a team from the south, like Mississippi College (19-5),  and they are being compared to a team from the northeast, midwest, etc., and the committee cant differentiate on any other metric and work their way down the criteria list to OWP and OOWP and say, "Eureka! The 4th team from the NESCAC (19-6) has an OWP of 0.615 and MC only has an OWP of 0.507, thats a difference of 0.108, that is clearly significant." Then I have a big problem of using OWP as a criteria because that 0.108 means nothing.  It just means that the 4th NESCAC team didnt have as in-bred a schedule.

Per Gary Grace, 2008 Division III Men's Basketball Committee Chairman, it's more the latter.  Last night on Hoopsville when asked how in-region winning % and strength of schedule (OWP, with OOWP used to break ties basically) are weighted relative to each other, he said, "We really try to weigh them fairly equally."  In other words, OWP/OOWP is used much more extensively than just as a tie-breaker.  It is a major criterion.

Note, he was also pretty clear that they realize there are different situations from region to region. "You try to weigh what is happening within that region and try to figure out how to apply that outside the region as best you can," he explained.  That said, other criteria fairly equal - winning %, for example - my guess is that teams with good OWP numbers have a big advantage over teams that don't.  In the end, I think the numbers are the numbers.  When Trinity (CT) is sitting there with a .615 OWP and Mississippi College with a .507, I'm pretty sure I know who gets in first.

http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/2008/02/25/preparing-for-the-ncaa-tournament-selections/

[pabegg]

pabegg,

You mention in your updated rankings "the next set of teams down to #39 Chicago are on the bubble" but you're showing Rhode Island College as #39. #40 is Albion and Chcago is #41. If Chicago is in fact #39 would they be the C 15?

Chicago is #41 (and the last team on the bubble, just behind RIC and Albion).

[golden_dome]

Chris, I agree with your larger point (even with 'wiser' scheduling, the ASC is at a disadvantage in playing the OWP card), but your specific numbers are off.  As far as I know, only the NESCAC has a single round-robin format, providing 16 non-con games.  Otherwise, very few conferences would have 12-15 non-con games: an 8-team league doing a double round-robin has 11 such games; a 9-team has but 9; etc.

Pat, if it would be readily available for you, could you list the # of conference games by conference?

Mr. Ypsi, I jumped into this topic about the OOWP and the OWP, but I really don't think it's a big deal right now. The number of nonconference games is irrelevent, there still just aren't enough DIII teams down here to play nonconference. As long as regional winning % is the primary component of regional rankings, it really doesn't matter. But if the OWP and OOWP start leaving out qualified deep south teams with better regional records, then that will be a different story.

But to give everyone an idea of what travel is like down here, I will list MS College's travel dates this year with some quesses on the mileage.
1. Had a 1200 mile roundtrip weekend to UMHB & Concordia.
2. A 1500 mile roundtrip to play Texas Lutheran and Schreiner.
3. A 900 mile roundtrip to play UT-Dallas and UT-Tyler.
4. A 600 mile roundtrip to play LeTourneau and ETBU.
5. 1200 mile roundtrip to play LA College and LeTournea.

All of these trips are by bus, plus MC took an extra trip to fly to Hampden-Sydney's tourney. The travel here is brutal, but more importantly expensive. I guess for MC, fewer conference trips might leave room for a trip somewhere else, but for teams in the central to west side of the ASC, there just aren't any opponents to play.

[Titan Q]

Stevens Point on the ropes...

http://livestats.internetconsult.com/uwsp/mbball/

[Mr. Ypsi]

Chris, one partial solution was suggested by Ralph on your home board - luring 'snowbird' teams to holiday tourneys.  The Texas teams can bring in CCIW, MWC, WIAC, etc. teams and be in-region.  Just going from memory, I believe the administrative regions would allow MC to bring down pretty much any GL team.  That's two more in-region games, and THEY pay for the travel!

[martin]

Stevens Point on the ropes...

http://livestats.internetconsult.com/uwsp/mbball/

Are we going to witness another WIAC ritual seppuku like 2001?

2001
Tuesday, Feb. 20
Quarterfinals
UW-Stout (#8) 90, UW-Whitewater (#1) 49 (at Whitewater)
UW-Eau Claire (#4) 83, UW-Superior (#5) 76 (at Eau Claire)
UW-Oshkosh (#6) 95, UW-River Falls (#3) 87 (Overtime) (at River Falls)
UW-Platteville (#7) 57, UW-Stevens Point (#2) 56 (at Stevens Point)

[David Collinge]

Stevens Point on the ropes...

http://livestats.internetconsult.com/uwsp/mbball/

Are we going to witness another WIAC ritual seppuku like 2001?

2001
Tuesday, Feb. 20
Quarterfinals
UW-Stout (#8) 90, UW-Whitewater (#1) 49 (at Whitewater)
UW-Eau Claire (#4) 83, UW-Superior (#5) 76 (at Eau Claire)
UW-Oshkosh (#6) 95, UW-River Falls (#3) 87 (Overtime) (at River Falls)
UW-Platteville (#7) 57, UW-Stevens Point (#2) 56 (at Stevens Point)

Whitewater is the only one with a comfortable lead right now, the other three seeds are fighting to stay alive.

[scottiedawg]

I just listened to the recent Hoopsville.  Can someone point me to the NCAA rules regarding travel, cost, proximity, etc that deal with how the committee is allowed to seed teams? 

[Titan Q]

I just listened to the recent Hoopsville.  Can someone point me to the NCAA rules regarding travel, cost, proximity, etc that deal with how the committee is allowed to seed teams? 

http://www.ncaa.org/library/handbooks/basketball/2008/2008_d3_m_basketball_handbook.pdf

[golden_dome]

Chris, one partial solution was suggested by Ralph on your home board - luring 'snowbird' teams to holiday tourneys.  The Texas teams can bring in CCIW, MWC, WIAC, etc. teams and be in-region.  Just going from memory, I believe the administrative regions would allow MC to bring down pretty much any GL team.  That's two more in-region games, and THEY pay for the travel!

Mr. Ypsi,  we would love to host a Christmas Tournament in our coliseum every year, but we currently have a scheduling conflict on campus that has not allowed the use of our facility. Maybe it can be worked out in the future, but that is the reason we have not brought teams down during the holidays. Bringing a team like Illinois Wesleyan down to this part of the country would be great for DIII basketball in the area.

[Ralph Turner]

Chris, one partial solution was suggested by Ralph on your home board - luring 'snowbird' teams to holiday tourneys.  The Texas teams can bring in CCIW, MWC, WIAC, etc. teams and be in-region.  Just going from memory, I believe the administrative regions would allow MC to bring down pretty much any GL team.  That's two more in-region games, and THEY pay for the travel!

I will make the case for Mississippi College and Millsaps...

Come down and visit the Vicksburg Battlefield, the Natchez Trace and the USS Cairo in Vicksburg. Make that part of the trip.

For Huntingdon College, I very strongly recommend the Civil Rights Museum, the F. Scott Fitzgerald Museum and the Museums from the War Between the States. 

Yes, Mississippi is in Administrative Region #3...all of the Great Lakes teams.

For Abilene (McMurry and Hardin-Simmons) Frontier Texas museum and Buffalo Gap Village (a 1880's frontier town operated in conjunction with the History Department at McMurry).

[Ralph Turner]

Chris, one partial solution was suggested by Ralph on your home board - luring 'snowbird' teams to holiday tourneys.  The Texas teams can bring in CCIW, MWC, WIAC, etc. teams and be in-region.  Just going from memory, I believe the administrative regions would allow MC to bring down pretty much any GL team.  That's two more in-region games, and THEY pay for the travel!

Mr. Ypsi,  we would love to host a Christmas Tournament in our coliseum every year, but we currently have a scheduling conflict on campus that has not allowed the use of our facility. Maybe it can be worked out in the future, but that is the reason we have not brought teams down during the holidays. Bringing a team like Illinois Wesleyan down to this part of the country would be great for DIII basketball in the area.

Do it Classic style with Millsaps at Millsaps!

(IWU is not in-region, but the HCAC schools, the MIAA schools, the OAC, and the AMCC schools not in Pennsylvania are in-region.)

[Mr. Downtown]

WIAC does the nation a favor.

Say good-bye to Oshkosh and Platteville. No chance for Pool C anymore.