Pool C

[nwhoops1903]

How many flights are scheduled right now?  One out west?

There's going to have to be three flights, I think.  The West winner has to fly to Whitworth, right?

After that, the Whitworth and McMurry pods will both have to fly to the second weekend.

I was wondering, for the sectionals, if the cost of flights comes into play for hosting.  For example, it's probably cheaper to fly to Minneapolis (St. Thomas) than to go to Stevens Point or Augustana.  Would they take that into consideration when choosing a host?

There is only ONE flight in the first 2 rounds.  Winner of McMurry pod will fly, TWO.  So round 3 COULD be hosted by Whitworth and keep flights below the "goal", if it even exists, of 5 flights before Final Four.  Didn't we count 5 flights last year?

How could you, of all people, overlook that the winner of Redlands/Chapman will be FLYING to Spokane?!

I didn't.  That is the only Round 1 or 2 flight.  And I mentioned it, "One out West".  I might have missed one somewhere else, have I?

[carletonsid]

Carleton should have been picked over UTD and UMHB.

SOS is the most unjust criterion for the regionally isolated teams in the ASC.

There are literally only 6 non-ASC D3 teams within range of the ASC (Trinity, Southwestern, Hendrix, Millsaps, Austin College and UDallas).  There are no teams for us to play.  IN fact, the OWP/OOWP of the SCAC will take a hit as it becomes more isolated with the loss of Depauw to the NCAC and the addition of UDallas, down here in the middle of "D3-nowhere".

If the ASC wants to play in-region games against teams that will have an OWP that can raise their OWP above .500 then ASC has to fly.

McMurry to Guilford and also played Averett.

UT-Tyler went to LaGrange.  (Coach Haynes is a wonderful guy and outstanding leader of men, but his W/L and OWP did not help UTT or the ASC.)

Concordia-TX brought in Beloit and UW-Platteville to help a little.

Howard Payne went to Rhodes and Rust (622 miles).  Not much help there.

I believe that Carleton was the "19th Pool C bid".  The lack of the win over GAC in the semis, that would have padded the totals, is the difference.

Thanks for the reply, Ralph.

I hesitated to put that part in about UMHB and UTD because I know the challenges teams down your way face. Plus, to me, they had so few games vs. regionally-ranked teams, but they delivered in those games. I had UTD in before Carleton, but not UMHB.

The Knights knew that a win over GAC would have helped and if they had taken care of business, probably no problem. My issue isn't that they didn't get in, it's more how they didn't get in that burns me. It seems that the NCAA didn't follow their own published guidelines, or so it seems. If they went to secondary criteria I don't have a firm grasp on those numbers, mostly because Carleton (and others in this area of the country) don't need to go out of region for out of conference games, so most of those criteria don't apply. One thing I will say in regards to ASC and other geographically isolated schools is that those schools like Carleton shouldn't be punished for being able to play lots of regional games. The committee should just judge the numbers and the records the teams earn, not what could have been or what they might think.

[Titan Q]

The criteria published by the NCAA says that "all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in priority order)." To me, that means that all will be weighted equally.

This has never been the case.  While the handbook does not spell out how exactly the primary criteria data is weighted, I think everyone familiar with the process will tell you that those factors are not weighted equally. 

There has always been a lot of subjectivity in the "weighting" process.

[carletonsid]

The criteria published by the NCAA says that "all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in priority order)." To me, that means that all will be weighted equally.

This has never been the case.  While the handbook does not spell out how exactly the primary criteria data is weighted, I think everyone familiar with the process will tell you that those factors are not weighted equally. 

There has always been a lot of subjectivity in the "weighting" process.

Good to know. Sure leaves a lot of wiggle room. 

I would guess, if that's the case the the chatter I've heard here that SOS is weighted more than the other criteria, how Carleton was passed over in favor of GMC and UMHB.

[Titan Q]

Good to know. Sure leaves a lot of wiggle room.  

I would guess, if that's the case the the chatter I've heard here that SOS is weighted more than the other criteria, how Carleton was passed over in favor of GMC and UMHB.

I don't think anyone has said that "SOS is weighted more than the other criteria" as a blanket statement -- we know that is not the case overall.  (In-region winning percentage has always been the biggie.)  But when the committee gets down to the end of the process - the last couple Pool C's - I think they look at everything and just try to find some type of differentiating point they think makes sense.  It could be anything really.

[Mr. Ypsi]

How many flights are scheduled right now?  One out west?

There's going to have to be three flights, I think.  The West winner has to fly to Whitworth, right?

After that, the Whitworth and McMurry pods will both have to fly to the second weekend.

I was wondering, for the sectionals, if the cost of flights comes into play for hosting.  For example, it's probably cheaper to fly to Minneapolis (St. Thomas) than to go to Stevens Point or Augustana.  Would they take that into consideration when choosing a host?

There is only ONE flight in the first 2 rounds.  Winner of McMurry pod will fly, TWO.  So round 3 COULD be hosted by Whitworth and keep flights below the "goal", if it even exists, of 5 flights before Final Four.  Didn't we count 5 flights last year?

How could you, of all people, overlook that the winner of Redlands/Chapman will be FLYING to Spokane?!

I didn't.  That is the only Round 1 or 2 flight.  And I mentioned it, "One out West".  I might have missed one somewhere else, have I?

My bad.  I somehow read it as you thinking the Texas flight was the only one in the first two rounds (which you correctly recognized was not until round 3).

I haven't done a careful check of sectionals, but kind of assume Whitworth to wherever and Texas to wherever are probably the only flights (maybe one other outlier, but don't know who it would be).

Because you're out there on the 'island' you might remember better than me - has it ever been established whether or not the d3 allotment for flights includes the FF?

[carletonsid]

Good to know. Sure leaves a lot of wiggle room.  

I would guess, if that's the case the the chatter I've heard here that SOS is weighted more than the other criteria, how Carleton was passed over in favor of GMC and UMHB.

I don't think anyone has said that "SOS is weighted more than the other criteria" as a blanket statement -- we know that is not the case overall.  (In-region winning percentage has always been the biggie.)  But when the committee gets down to the end of the process - the last couple Pool C's - I think they look at everything and just try to find some type of differentiating point they think makes sense.  It could be anything really.

Not to take a shot here, but anything? Like uniform colors? Guess the committee preferred green over navy!

If in-region win percentage is tops, than Carleton ( 18-6/.750) certainly far trumps IWU (18-8/.692) and is certainly stronger than Hanover (19-7/.731). We'll never know, I guess, and that's the travesty of the situation. The schools involved should know EXACTLY how teams are selected and what criteria they're ranked on and which ones matter the most. All this cloak-and-dagger crap is so frustrating. Might was well not even publish criteria and just pick teams by some super-secret RPI formula.   

[Pat Coleman]

Someone at Carleton should ask their regional chair. You are entitled to ask the question.

[nwhoops1903]

How many flights are scheduled right now?  One out west?

There's going to have to be three flights, I think.  The West winner has to fly to Whitworth, right?

After that, the Whitworth and McMurry pods will both have to fly to the second weekend.

I was wondering, for the sectionals, if the cost of flights comes into play for hosting.  For example, it's probably cheaper to fly to Minneapolis (St. Thomas) than to go to Stevens Point or Augustana.  Would they take that into consideration when choosing a host?

There is only ONE flight in the first 2 rounds.  Winner of McMurry pod will fly, TWO.  So round 3 COULD be hosted by Whitworth and keep flights below the "goal", if it even exists, of 5 flights before Final Four.  Didn't we count 5 flights last year?

How could you, of all people, overlook that the winner of Redlands/Chapman will be FLYING to Spokane?!

I didn't.  That is the only Round 1 or 2 flight.  And I mentioned it, "One out West".  I might have missed one somewhere else, have I?

My bad.  I somehow read it as you thinking the Texas flight was the only one in the first two rounds (which you correctly recognized was not until round 3).

I haven't done a careful check of sectionals, but kind of assume Whitworth to wherever and Texas to wherever are probably the only flights (maybe one other outlier, but don't know who it would be).

Because you're out there on the 'island' you might remember better than me - has it ever been established whether or not the d3 allotment for flights includes the FF?

The real question is does this exist?  If It does, and let's say it is 5 and does NOT include the FF, then Whitworth could host 3 "Flyers" and hit the number.  In fact, potential for a charter for some Ohio schools to depart Ohio (men and woman), stop in MINN unload and proceed to Spokane.  Never know...

[Ralph Turner]

How many flights are scheduled right now?  One out west?

There's going to have to be three flights, I think.  The West winner has to fly to Whitworth, right?

After that, the Whitworth and McMurry pods will both have to fly to the second weekend.

I was wondering, for the sectionals, if the cost of flights comes into play for hosting.  For example, it's probably cheaper to fly to Minneapolis (St. Thomas) than to go to Stevens Point or Augustana.  Would they take that into consideration when choosing a host?

There is only ONE flight in the first 2 rounds.  Winner of McMurry pod will fly, TWO.  So round 3 COULD be hosted by Whitworth and keep flights below the "goal", if it even exists, of 5 flights before Final Four.  Didn't we count 5 flights last year?

How could you, of all people, overlook that the winner of Redlands/Chapman will be FLYING to Spokane?!

I didn't.  That is the only Round 1 or 2 flight.  And I mentioned it, "One out West".  I might have missed one somewhere else, have I?

My bad.  I somehow read it as you thinking the Texas flight was the only one in the first two rounds (which you correctly recognized was not until round 3).

I haven't done a careful check of sectionals, but kind of assume Whitworth to wherever and Texas to wherever are probably the only flights (maybe one other outlier, but don't know who it would be).

Because you're out there on the 'island' you might remember better than me - has it ever been established whether or not the d3 allotment for flights includes the FF?

The real question is does this exist?  If It does, and let's say it is 5 and does NOT include the FF, then Whitworth could host 3 "Flyers" and hit the number.  In fact, potential for a charter for some Ohio schools to depart Ohio (men and woman), stop in MINN unload and proceed to Spokane.  Never know...

I honestly don't know what it is like this year, but about a decade ago, the women's bracket supposedly overspent their budget.

I think that Whitworth would have gotten to host a sectional if there were a third travel orphan, to allow the NCAA to allow a fourth.

The NWC has to face it.  You are not going to host a sectional  Unless you have some incredible lucky breaks, such as quality teams unable to host in the even-numbered years because the women's team needs the gym that weekend to host their sectionals.

Undefeated (in D3) Mississippi College, the top seed in the South, was sent Wittenberg in 2006.

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4502.1305

[nwhoops1903]

How many flights are scheduled right now?  One out west?

There's going to have to be three flights, I think.  The West winner has to fly to Whitworth, right?

After that, the Whitworth and McMurry pods will both have to fly to the second weekend.

I was wondering, for the sectionals, if the cost of flights comes into play for hosting.  For example, it's probably cheaper to fly to Minneapolis (St. Thomas) than to go to Stevens Point or Augustana.  Would they take that into consideration when choosing a host?

There is only ONE flight in the first 2 rounds.  Winner of McMurry pod will fly, TWO.  So round 3 COULD be hosted by Whitworth and keep flights below the "goal", if it even exists, of 5 flights before Final Four.  Didn't we count 5 flights last year?

How could you, of all people, overlook that the winner of Redlands/Chapman will be FLYING to Spokane?!

I didn't.  That is the only Round 1 or 2 flight.  And I mentioned it, "One out West".  I might have missed one somewhere else, have I?

My bad.  I somehow read it as you thinking the Texas flight was the only one in the first two rounds (which you correctly recognized was not until round 3).

I haven't done a careful check of sectionals, but kind of assume Whitworth to wherever and Texas to wherever are probably the only flights (maybe one other outlier, but don't know who it would be).

Because you're out there on the 'island' you might remember better than me - has it ever been established whether or not the d3 allotment for flights includes the FF?

The real question is does this exist?  If It does, and let's say it is 5 and does NOT include the FF, then Whitworth could host 3 "Flyers" and hit the number.  In fact, potential for a charter for some Ohio schools to depart Ohio (men and woman), stop in MINN unload and proceed to Spokane.  Never know...

I honestly don't know what it is like this year, but about a decade ago, the women's bracket supposedly overspent their budget.

I think that Whitworth would have gotten to host a sectional if there were a third travel orphan, to allow the NCAA to allow a fourth.

The NWC has to face it.  You are not going to host a sectional  Unless you have some incredible lucky breaks, such as quality teams unable to host in the even-numbered years because the women's team needs the gym that weekend to host their sectionals.

Undefeated (in D3) Mississippi College, the top seed in the South, was sent Wittenberg in 2006.

Yes, most of us realize and accept the truly unlikely possibilty, regardless of merit, that we will host a 3rd round sectional.  A perfect alignment of factors would make it possible, OR a budget/allotment was standard for flights.  If that was a published fact, then the odds go up.  A top seed should not have to travel to a lower seeds home court in a perfect, nonexistent, D3 world.  Not too often a geo orphan is a legit top seed.  What happened to Mississippi at Guilford that year anyway?

[smedindy]

The whole discussion about this seems pretty darn silly since the NCAA just got a bank vault of cash for the rights to the D-1 tournament.

And while promoting regional games is noble, when teams like Carleton, EMU and Wabash are left out of the tournament because of that criteria just doesn't seem right.

[nwhoops1903]

The whole discussion about this seems pretty darn silly since the NCAA just got a bank vault of cash for the rights to the D-1 tournament.

And while promoting regional games is noble, when teams like Carleton, EMU and Wabash are left out of the tournament because of that criteria just doesn't seem right.

True.  Maybe we can get better ratios and have a 64 field next year.  Then we can hear about how 65, 66 & 67 got hosed.    #1 seeds should ALWAYS host or even better, 8 teams at 2 neutral sites for round 3 & 4 super tournaments.  Lets spend that money!!!!

[Ralph Turner]

Just Bill's excellent post about the Stevens Point rule...

the year that L&C hosted a sectional with Sul Ross State, Lawrence and UWSP.

If you saw it called the "Stevens Point Rule" that references 2004. Both the UWSP men and women were selected to host a sectional. With no rule against it, the two NCAA committee chairs discussed the feasibility of allowing Point to host them both simultaneously. Point was willing to do both, but the chairs ultimately decided that it was not feasible to do both equitably.

At that point, the chairs asked UWSP to choose which one they would rather host. Then-AD Frank O'Brien wisely had no interest in picking one team over the other and he refused to name a preference, insisting UWSP was capable of hosting both.

Ultimately the decision rested on the two committee chairs. They decided that since the women were seeded higher than the men, they would get the right to host. The men were shipped to Puget Sound. (Lawrence would have been the preferred geogrhical choice, but their gym does not meet sectional standards.)

Both teams won their sectionals with the men winning their first national title and the women placing fourth and missing out on two titles in three years. The next year the NCAA put in the current rotation system.

[Ralph Turner]

...

I honestly don't know what it is like this year, but about a decade ago, the women's bracket supposedly overspent their budget.

I think that Whitworth would have gotten to host a sectional if there were a third travel orphan, to allow the NCAA to allow a fourth.

The NWC has to face it.  You are not going to host a sectional  Unless you have some incredible lucky breaks, such as quality teams unable to host in the even-numbered years because the women's team needs the gym that weekend to host their sectionals.

Undefeated (in D3) Mississippi College, the top seed in the South, was sent Wittenberg in 2006.

Yes, most of us realize and accept the truly unlikely possibilty, regardless of merit, that we will host a 3rd round sectional.  A perfect alignment of factors would make it possible, OR a budget/allotment was standard for flights.  If that was a published fact, then the odds go up.  A top seed should not have to travel to a lower seeds home court in a perfect, nonexistent, D3 world.  Not too often a geo orphan is a legit top seed.  What happened to Mississippi at Guilford that year anyway?

I believe that it was 2007 that Mississippi College was #1.  They were shipped to VWC, (not Guilford, my bad.  Guilford had the famous triple OT game with Lincoln in the game before the MC-VWC game.)

Here is the discussion of that game.

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4502.2415