Pool C

[Gregory Sager]

In other words, it should never get as far as secondary criteria.

I said this on the blog (where I also dispute your assessment of UWL's record vs. RR opponents, Greg), but I'll say it here, too: I think it's actually rather common to use secondary criteria at the bottom of any B or C list.

As I said on the blog, I conceded that I had mixed up UWL and UW-Stout with regard to Carleton and St. Thomas. That might make the difference in my reconsidering and then putting the Eagles ahead of Carleton or Bates, but I don't think it does so with regard to Lakeland. If the committee is true to the handbook, which states that secondary criteria only come into play when the primary criteria can't clearly make a distinction between the qualifications of two teams, then Lakeland still bests UW-LaCrosse, because the Muskies grade out higher in at least three of the primary criteria.

One other thing and then I get back to editing USAT. Remember the criterion says " • In-region results versus regionally ranked teams (teams ranked at time of selection only)."

This doesn't say "winning percentage" or "wins" -- it says results. Merely playing a RR team could be considered a result.

I realize that, and I've already argued that point with Q. But even if the committee does take the piecemeal approach, which I think is a bit ethically dodgy (although more understandable with a 3-4 team rather than a 1-4 team), it still only gives UWL one criterion out of five, with Lakeland owning three others (including the two that everyone insists hold the most weight, QOWI and in-region W-L percentage) and the fourth not being applicable.

[jagluski]

OK, I think most everyone is agreed on:

Tufts
Gordon
Augustana
Carroll
Wooster
Baruch
Cortland
Calvin
Widener
York (PA)
Trinity (TX)
Stout

That leaves six bids left.  My idea of the candidates: Utica, Trinity (CT), Bates, Lakeland, WashU, LaCrosse, Carleton, Randolph-Macon and IWU.

Two of those teams have to get left out.

For me, Utica's 20 wins is too much to keep them out, especially since they may be right behind Cortland in terms of elligible teams in the East Rankings.

I also see IWU, Trinity (CT), Carelton and Randolph-Macon getting in.

That leaves Bates/WashU/LaCrosse out there.  I think Bates gets in next (better QOWI, better in-region winning percentage), then WashU.  Lakeland never gets to the table.

Something seems wrong here.  There are 18 Pool C bids.  You have 12 in, leaving 6 bids left.  You then list 9 teams and say 2 should be left out.  I think you've got one too many teams in.

[Gregory Sager]

With Cameos from Coach Trost and Gregory Sager, if he is awake!

Just make sure that you schedule it for after my nap. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

One other thing and then I get back to editing USAT. Remember the criterion says " • In-region results versus regionally ranked teams (teams ranked at time of selection only)."

This doesn't say "winning percentage" or "wins" -- it says results. Merely playing a RR team could be considered a result.

Over on CCIW Chat, Q made the same point, and says he was told they deliberately made the wording vague so as to leave room for subjective decisions.  I applaud that because, as much as subjective decisions can be biased, politicized, etc., mechanical application of numerical rules can be even worse. 

(So sayeth the stat prof, who tries to teach that numbers NEVER 'speak for themselves'!)

[patcummings]

Don't get me wrong, Ralph...we had a real long discussion about picking 4 teams for the Pool B's.  

Villa Julie can't be discounted either...a real strong regional winning percentage but their record against regionally ranked teams isn't good.  Johns Hopkins' loss in the CC final today probably ended Villa Julie's chances, IMO.

It's hard to fathom two GSAC teams getting in (just not what most people would expect to see), but Chapman just was below the others and we couldn't put them in for the sake of geographic parity.  Which, of course, will be a debate if they DO get in.  

Why does that debate NOT make sense this year?  The regional pod scenarios.  Even if CMS and Chapman get in, both of them are going to have to travel (and that means fly) to get to Puget Sound or anywhere else.  CMS can't host Chapman and avoid an extra flight because given the parameters, that would mean two other schools would have to fly into CMS.  

[Mr. Ypsi]

patcummings,

Aside from their complete lack of mention today, I assume your talk of regional 'pods' indicates that Occidental is now 'officially' believed to have ended their season.

[Pat Coleman]

Why does that debate NOT make sense this year?  The regional pod scenarios.  Even if CMS and Chapman get in, both of them are going to have to travel (and that means fly) to get to Puget Sound or anywhere else.  CMS can't host Chapman and avoid an extra flight because given the parameters, that would mean two other schools would have to fly into CMS. 

I don't think that's actually true. You could do what we did and have them play each other in a first-round game on Thursday with the winner flying to any bye team.

[patcummings]

Yeah.  They were one of about 35 teams we considered for Pool C's, but never even made it to the debate because there were too many teams on the table that got in above them.  The Daily Dose makes it clear they weren't even among the next to be considered.  

But you raise a good point...if Oxy, CMS, and Chapman all get in, in games played at one of their gyms...well that would be a massive debate.  It would be hard to argue, at that point, that teams are really chosen first on merit, then bracketed.  

But frankly, we're optimistic that with 59 teams, the best will be chosen based on the criteria.  48 teams allowed for more debate amongst who was #49 and #50 than who is #60 or #61, because chances are that your numbers are so medicore anyway.

[patcummings]

Right, forgot that Thursday games exist if you are playing a team with a bye.

[smedindy]

Mediocre being realtive, though, based on the infernal criteria.

[patcummings]

Always, Smed, always.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

OK, I think most everyone is agreed on:

Tufts
Gordon
Augustana
Carroll
Wooster
Baruch
Cortland
Calvin
Widener
York (PA)
Trinity (TX)
Stout

That leaves six bids left.  My idea of the candidates: Utica, Trinity (CT), Bates, Lakeland, WashU, LaCrosse, Carleton, Randolph-Macon and IWU.

Two of those teams have to get left out.

For me, Utica's 20 wins is too much to keep them out, especially since they may be right behind Cortland in terms of elligible teams in the East Rankings.

I also see IWU, Trinity (CT), Carelton and Randolph-Macon getting in.

That leaves Bates/WashU/LaCrosse out there.  I think Bates gets in next (better QOWI, better in-region winning percentage), then WashU.  Lakeland never gets to the table.

Something seems wrong here.  There are 18 Pool C bids.  You have 12 in, leaving 6 bids left.  You then list 9 teams and say 2 should be left out.  I think you've got one too many teams in.

You're right, I do.  I guess WashU just doesn't make my cut either.  That's sad, I thought they earned a spot.  Oh well.  Gotta love the numbers only selection game.

[jagluski]

Why are there only 10 teams on the Pool C list?

[titanhammer]

Why are there only 10 teams on the Pool C list?

I was wondering the same.  I'm guessing it will be updated.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's all a big joke; it's really only a 51 team tournament.  Ha Ha, stupid D3, the NCAA has struck again!!!  That's what you get for emphasizing academics over athletics.