Pool C

[Pat Coleman]

And Greg, a little misleading - on the occasion IWU is in the tournament representing the CCIW, you do support and become a "fan" albeit no longer than absolutely possible

How long is necessary to satisfy you?

[Gregory Sager]

Greg just a few points to wrap this up from my end:

First, if you are not defending the statements I found objectionable in the first place and which inspired this whole discussion, and not disagreeing with my assertion that THIS year it is unfair to denigrate beating northeast competition in the tourney as less impressive than any other path a team might take, I'm not even sure what we are arguing about.  I've said from the outset and continue to say that New England is aberrantly deep in quality this year (although perhaps like the rest of D3, no single New England team appears to be a juggernaut prohibitively favorited to win the tourney.  Midd sure has been on a major roll though). 

I dunno. Isn't this argument one of the annual rites of March on d3boards?

How about we agree on this much: this year, the New England teams in the tourney are demonstrably worthy as a group, and going through them to get to the Final Four is a very difficult path.  Whether that is accurate more generally or in past years, we can leave to another day.  And I think we can also agree that New England and NESCAC in particular receive far more scrutiny than any other region/conference here.  Whether that is always fair, sometimes fair, or never fair (my view is "sometimes"), again, I'll leave for another day.

I can agree with both of those statements. My contention is that this season may simply prove to be aberrational -- a contention with which you seem to concur to some degree -- and thus doesn't erase the larger trend of midwestern dominance and the tougher path faced in the midwestern-oriented quadrants. Perhaps in another couple of years this is a discussion that can be revisited if this year's situation comes with a reprise, and then another.

Second, I have to point out that these are certainly not "mirror statements":

I said that NESCAC may have done better OR worse had the brackets been organized differently.  You've said NESCAC may have done the same or worse but could not possibly have done better.   That you view these statements as equivalent is telling. 

Mirror statements aren't equivalent. They're opposite. Everything's reversed in a mirror. That's what I meant by that. I apologize if my meaning wasn't plain there.

Third, regarding your Williams/Amherst point, if you eliminate from consideration the best two programs from any region (and recall the WIAC teams until very recently were in the West) how many regions have produced more than three final four teams from OTHER programs outside those the top two in the past 15 years?  It's not really fair to say, "well, the region hasn't done that well at getting teams to Salem outside of the top two programs in said region."  I would guess the majority of regions produced fewer (not the midwest, I realize, but I guess all or at least most of the rest).  And I'm betting that this year, at least one maybe two other non-Williams/Amherst teams make it to Salem in all events.  And if they do, I like their chances to prove they belong (especially Midd and if healthy Babson or Tufts).

We're getting into the weeds on this one, but, even though I admit to using "region" language in past posts, in reality the tournament bracket isn't really set up by regions -- and it wasn't even before the NCAA got more relaxed with the wallet and started springing for more flights and the means to spread out bracketing possibilities better. Even when the WIAC was in the West Region, it was still always conjoined with the CCIW, the western UAA duo, the MWC, etc., in terms of bracketing. The committee never said, "Well, the WIAC and the MIAC and the IIAC are in the West Region, so we have to find a way to put them together with the NWC and the SCIAC." They always constructed brackets around geography rather than region -- which meant that the paths that the WIAC, CCIW, MIAC, and Wash U/Chicago have had to follow have always intersected in the tourney's first two weekends. That's been true since the early days of the tourney.

For example, you could say, the Great Lakes isn't a deep region because outside of Hope and Wooster, only Wittenburg or Calvin have made the Final Four in the past 15 years.  The reality is that we see some of the same programs in championship games again and again: of 26 title game slots over the past 14 years, Whitewater, Stevens Point, Amherst, Williams, Wash U., St. Thomas, Virginia Wesleyan have combined for 18 of them!  And that group has won ALL of the past 14 titles.  As much as I'd love it to be otherwise, that streak very likely comes to an end in this weird year in which Stevens Point, Amherst, St. Thomas, and VWU are all down by their usual standards, Wash U. fell victim to Stuive's insane game, Whitewater never played to its talent level, and Williams has finally put things together, but only very late in the season and has to (likely) get through the Middlebury buzzsaw on the road should they manage to survive a tough Susquehanah squad.  But lots of teams, from lots of different regions, have been blocked by that group of repeat finalists, which kind of take turns having dominant runs in the tourney.  What makes this year so interesting and so fun is that the champion seemingly can come from ANYONE left (just about) and it's hard to pick out one or two favorites.  Williams, for example, has faced some combination of Wooster (twice in Salem), Virginia Wesleyan (at least twice in regionals), Amherst (twice in regionals, twice in Salem) and the top two WIAC teams (three times in title games) on each of its deep tourney runs, plus St. Thomas once in a regional, and it each case it was fairly predictable that they would.  That sort of predictability seems to have gone by the wayside this year with more and more parity in D3.

Agreed, and, quite frankly, I think that it's making this tournament more fun to watch than has been the case in recent years. Still, I can't help noticing that four of the seven schools you named as the monopolizers are midwestern schools.  

But yes, I'll fully concede in all events that typically having to beat Williams and/or Amherst, certainly two of the top 6-8 programs in all of D3 (St. Thomas, VWU, Wash U, Stevens Point, Whitewater, Wooster would be my others, although I'm sure there are 5-6 other legit candidates, like Hope or IWU, that could stake a strong claim there) over the past 15 years, to make it to Salem poses a big hurdle for other New England squads.

... and the more big-name monopolizers you have in your quadrant from year to year, the more hurdles you annually have on the road to Salem. That's more or less all I'm saying -- although, again, that really isn't the case this March at all.

[kiko]

Second, I have to point out that these are certainly not "mirror statements":

I said that NESCAC may have done better OR worse had the brackets been organized differently.  You've said NESCAC may have done the same or worse but could not possibly have done better.   That you view these statements as equivalent is telling. 

Mirror statements aren't equivalent. They're opposite. Everything's reversed in a mirror. That's what I meant by that. I apologize if my meaning wasn't plain there.

Well, at least they aren't blanket statements.  I'd be really concerned about those given that the Lord Jeffs are involved.

(I'll see myself out now...)

[Gregory Sager]

[Gregory Sager]

And Greg, a little misleading - on the occasion IWU is in the tournament representing the CCIW, you do support and become a "fan" albeit no longer than absolutely possible

The words "support" and "fan" in that context are definitely an overstatement.

This raises an interesting point, because this very same discussion is currently boiling over in the MIAA room, where the two fan bases of the Rivalry schools are having internal debates over whether it is right and proper for a Hope/Calvin fan to root for Calvin/Hope in the D3 tournament. I think that if you called one of the Calvin posters who is willing to put MIAA pride ahead of Rivalry loyalty for the duration of Hope's 2017 tourney run a "Hope fan", that Calvin poster would smite-button you faster than you can say "Aaron Winkle".

I may not be that extreme, but I definitely approach the tourney with ambivalence as far as other CCIW teams are concerned. Part of me wants to see the league succeed on the national stage, part of me dreads the thought of somebody else from NPU's league hauling home the Big Doorstop. It's happened once, twenty years ago, and I'm not altogether sure that I want to see it happen again. And, of course, to be perfectly honest I don't have the same feelings about each rival team in the league. They're all mixed by the people I know from those schools, the tenor of those schools' respective fan bases, NPU's histories with those particular teams, the particular sport involved, etc. F'rinstance, last season it was easier to make peace with the thought of John Baines having a deep run in the tourney than it was with the thought of Grey Giovanine having a deep run. And everybody knows that, like the vast majority of North Park folks, Wheaton is the school that draws out the most ire in me. Yet I have an easier time rooting for a Wheaton win when it's necessary for NPU, or supporting (however mildly) a Wheaton team in the tournament, when it's the Wheaton men's basketball team that's involved rather than the Wheaton men's soccer team. That's because of the friendship and respect I have for Mike Schauer, as opposed to the added animosity I feel towards Wheaton soccer as a result of the fact that WC had North Park investigated by the NCAA for eligibility violations, because their coach thought that the Swedes that NPU's coach kept bringing over were so good that they couldn't possibly be amateur status -- a hostile gesture (without merit, I should add) that was universally met with scorn at NPU as being: a) sour grapes; b) unchristian behavior; and c) an attempt to quash a threat to WC's age-old CCIW hegemony on the soccer pitch without admitting as much.

To sum up, when I told BM that Illinois Wesleyan is not my team, I sincerely meant every word of it. Even if there's a part of me that wants to see the Titans win in a particular situation, they are still clearly not my team. They are, at best, an expedient device to garner more respect for North Park's league.

[HOPEful]

To sum up, when I told BM that Illinois Wesleyan is not my team, I sincerely meant every word of it. Even if there's a part of me that wants to see the Titans win in a particular situation, they are still clearly not my team. They are, at best, an expedient device to garner more respect for North Park's league.

I love this. If I referred to calvin as "an expedient device to garner more respect for Hope's league" in the MIAA thread, I would swiftly be smitten 10 times over.

I just hit 150 last night. I'm tempted to steal this and see if I can get to 200 by Saturday!

[bbfan44]

To sum up, when I told BM that Illinois Wesleyan is not my team, I sincerely meant every word of it. Even if there's a part of me that wants to see the Titans win in a particular situation, they are still clearly not my team. They are, at best, an expedient device to garner more respect for North Park's league.

I love this. If I referred to calvin as "an expedient device to garner more respect for Hope's league" in the MIAA thread, I would swiftly be smitten 10 times over.

I just hit 150 last night. I'm tempted to steal this and see if I can get to 200 by Saturday!

Would you buy "the league North Park is in" and "the league Hope is in" ?

[toad22]

To sum up, when I told BM that Illinois Wesleyan is not my team, I sincerely meant every word of it. Even if there's a part of me that wants to see the Titans win in a particular situation, they are still clearly not my team. They are, at best, an expedient device to garner more respect for North Park's league.

I love this. If I referred to calvin as "an expedient device to garner more respect for Hope's league" in the MIAA thread, I would swiftly be smitten 10 times over.

I just hit 150 last night. I'm tempted to steal this and see if I can get to 200 by Saturday!

As an Eph fan, this conversation has given me a great way to describe my feeling toward ever, ever wishing anything but defeat and humiliation on Amherst. "Expedient device" - words to live by!

[Just Bill]

Second, I have to point out that these are certainly not "mirror statements":

I said that NESCAC may have done better OR worse had the brackets been organized differently.  You've said NESCAC may have done the same or worse but could not possibly have done better.   That you view these statements as equivalent is telling. 

Mirror statements aren't equivalent. They're opposite. Everything's reversed in a mirror. That's what I meant by that. I apologize if my meaning wasn't plain there.

Well, at least they aren't blanket statements.  I'd be really concerned about those given that the Lord Jeffs are involved.

(I'll see myself out now...)

You just don't get this kind of deep, historical humor over on D1Boards.com.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Second, I have to point out that these are certainly not "mirror statements":

I said that NESCAC may have done better OR worse had the brackets been organized differently.  You've said NESCAC may have done the same or worse but could not possibly have done better.   That you view these statements as equivalent is telling. 

Mirror statements aren't equivalent. They're opposite. Everything's reversed in a mirror. That's what I meant by that. I apologize if my meaning wasn't plain there.

Well, at least they aren't blanket statements.  I'd be really concerned about those given that the Lord Jeffs are involved.

(I'll see myself out now...)

You just don't get this kind of deep, historical humor over on D1Boards.com.

This is where being Division III proves itself... we are all smart enough to get this one. This is actually outstanding! Well done, kiko! Well done, indeed.

[nescac1]

Greg, I understood your meaning.  The statements are not of equivalent character, and are not opposites.  Saying that NESCAC could not have done better is false.   Saying that NESCAC MAY have done better is true.  Had I said, NESCAC could not have done worse, but only could havr done better, then your statement would have mirrored mine.  But I did not.   That's what I'm getting at.

More importantly, nicely done Kiko, nicely done!  And while they are no longer the Lord Jeffs, they are still Amherst, so the statement still applies!!

[magicman]

I placed a call to Vegas to see if they would make book on who would have the last word...Greg or nescac1.

They informed me that Greg was the morning line favorite at 2-1, but the late money has been pouring in on nescac1 and he's now 8-5. Post time is midnight tonight. 

[HOPEful]

I placed a call to Vegas to see if they would make book on who would have the last word...Greg or nescac1.

They informed me that Greg was the morning line favorite at 2-1, but the late money has been pouring in on nescac1 and he's now 8-5. Post time is midnight tonight.

magicman, how did you bet? I'll place my bet to mirror yours!

[Gregory Sager]

To sum up, when I told BM that Illinois Wesleyan is not my team, I sincerely meant every word of it. Even if there's a part of me that wants to see the Titans win in a particular situation, they are still clearly not my team. They are, at best, an expedient device to garner more respect for North Park's league.

I love this. If I referred to calvin as "an expedient device to garner more respect for Hope's league" in the MIAA thread, I would swiftly be smitten 10 times over.

I just hit 150 last night. I'm tempted to steal this and see if I can get to 200 by Saturday!

You're certainly right about that. When things get hot in the MIAA room, all you have to do is sneeze and everybody who supports the other Rivalry school smites you. That's the downside to having the college basketball equivalent of Spy vs. Spy in your league.

As an Eph fan, this conversation has given me a great way to describe my feeling toward ever, ever wishing anything but defeat and humiliation on Amherst. "Expedient device" - words to live by!

I'm happy to help up the ante for all of D3's top rivalries.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, I understood your meaning.  The statements are not of equivalent character, and are not opposites.  Saying that NESCAC could not have done better is false.   Saying that NESCAC MAY have done better is true.  Had I said, NESCAC could not have done worse, but only could havr done better, then your statement would have mirrored mine.  But I did not.   That's what I'm getting at.

The mirror aspect reflects the second clause, not the entire thing. It's a language argument. Note the original posts:

I've seen Marietta and Hope lose to NESCAC teams, neither of which was in the top two in the conference.  I don't think it's fair to assume that NESCAC would have done any worse if placed in a Midwest-heavy bracket.  It is equally likely that this year in paticular, they would have fared better.

That's a reach. The NESCAC may very well have done as well in a midwest-oriented quadrant as it has done in the two northeastern-oriented quadrants, given the strength of the league's reps this season, but it certainly would not have done better.

Granted, it's not an exact mirror -- I changed the pronoun (because "NESCAC" is a singular and not a plural), I intensified the response by adding the adverb "certainly", and I used the verb "done" rather than "fared" (mea culpa) -- but the second clause was meant to gainsay your original statement by using basically the same wording as yours for rhetorical effect. That's why I used the phrase "mirror statement" in the first place.

I placed a call to Vegas to see if they would make book on who would have the last word...Greg or nescac1.

They informed me that Greg was the morning line favorite at 2-1, but the late money has been pouring in on nescac1 and he's now 8-5. Post time is midnight tonight.

magicman, how did you bet? I'll place my bet to mirror yours!