Pool C

[AO]

When is D3 going to get rid of the "regional' classifications?  Seems like more of a headache for everyone involved.  Do we really fear that some D3 is going to play an independent jet-setting class-missing schedule?  Furthermore, would that harm any of the other d3 teams if some teams did decide to miss more class?

[Just Bill]

I've thought for a couple years now that the "regional" definitions were so big and so inclusive, it would make more sense to do away with them. Make all games vs. D-IIIs count.

[smedindy]

I for one want to keep D-3 away from the insane travel of some D-1 programs that sacrifice themselves to make their athletic department nut on guarantee games.

While I don't like the current over-emphasis on regional games, some schools can pay for the travel, but a focus on regional games levels that playing field for those who have-not.

[Just Bill]

I for one want to keep D-3 away from the insane travel of some D-1 programs that sacrifice themselves to make their athletic department nut on guarantee games.

While I don't like the current over-emphasis on regional games, some schools can pay for the travel, but a focus on regional games levels that playing field for those who have-not.

I just don't think that's reasonably going to happen. Those ridiculous, cross country, weeknight games in D-I happen because TV foots the bill with a guarantee. That's not about to happen in D-III. I think the regional definition has become a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[KnightSlappy]

I've thought for a couple years now that the "regional" definitions were so big and so inclusive, it would make more sense to do away with them. Make all games vs. D-IIIs count.

It really depends on where you are in the country, and how much your admin region 'helps you out' with games in surrounding states.

For a team like Calvin, the answer is not much. The GL region ends with MI and some of IN which is the exact border of Admin Region 3 (we gain the HCAC). And Lake Michigan makes pretty much all WI and IL games over 200 miles. Triple whammy.

[KnightSlappy]

I for one want to keep D-3 away from the insane travel of some D-1 programs that sacrifice themselves to make their athletic department nut on guarantee games.

While I don't like the current over-emphasis on regional games, some schools can pay for the travel, but a focus on regional games levels that playing field for those who have-not.

My stance, though, is that I'd rather see the regional definition be slightly "too big" than the least bit restrictive on anyone.

Basically, there's no way in a sane world that Calvin-Wheaton is out of region.

[smedindy]

I for one want to keep D-3 away from the insane travel of some D-1 programs that sacrifice themselves to make their athletic department nut on guarantee games.

While I don't like the current over-emphasis on regional games, some schools can pay for the travel, but a focus on regional games levels that playing field for those who have-not.

I just don't think that's reasonably going to happen. Those ridiculous, cross country, weeknight games in D-I happen because TV foots the bill with a guarantee. That's not about to happen in D-III. I think the regional definition has become a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

A lot of those games are games that TV wouldn't touch, Bill. Did ESPN pay to televise Indiana vs. Savannah State? How about Minnesota vs. Mt. St. Mary's?

I agree that Wheaton vs. Calvin should be regional, of course.

[Just Bill]

Of course not. I guess I should have said TV and/or the host school. Minnesota footed the bill for Mt. St. Mary's. Indiana footed the bill for Savannah State. Do you really think D-III's are going to start paying gurantee games big enough to get Fontbonne to fly to Boston on a Tuesday? I don't.

I think is bigger is better too. I'd just go to the extreme and lift the restriction completely.

[smedindy]

There had to be some problem or perceived problem that the NCAA tried to fix with this system. Of course, they overplayed the hand, but there had to be an impetus about some teams with more travel $$ playing those who were far versus those who were near.

When was this system implemented?

[Just Bill]

It's more an evolution of the tournament selection process than a rule to fix an anticipated problem.

When D-III first started the national tournament was made up of regional brackets and you knew exactly how many teams from each region would be in it (ie, 6 teams from each of 8 regions). Because the regional brackets were all little islands that you couldn't move off of, it made sense to only use a strict regional games policy to compare teams.

Of couse, some regions were good and some regions sucked were not so good. Eventually the membership wanted bigger brackets, more flexibility in bracketing, elimination of the x number of teams per region restrictions. So the NCAA slowly moved that way, but for a while the regional definition and emphasis didn't change. Now the regional definition has become more flexible to be more consistent with the more flexible selection process (200-mile rule, administrative regions). All that was good.

I just think we've reached the point now where it's not really necessary anymore. Let all D-III games count. It's particularily silly in baseball when teams from all over the country travel to Florida and then request the tournament organizers to only give them regional games. Isn't part of the reason for these trips to play across regions so we can play someone we ordinarily couldn't play and have some data to make comparisions across regions?

I think some schools have feared a wealthy school flying all over and using that as part of their recruting pitch, but I just don't think it's very likely to be a problem. The UAA has been flying everywhere for years and while that's a good league, it doesn't automatically make them national title shoe-ins.

[sac]

The D3 tournament also moved to Automatic Qualifiers, which gave a whole bunch of conferences who always had difficulty making the tournament a way in (Presidents, AMCC) for example.  The tournament became about access not quality.  I believe the emergence of the AQ's brought about the pool system along with a move to unify the tournament selection process across all sports using a ratio system.


We've had the pool system for almost a decade now.  There really is not a problem with the pool system, the problem lies in the details of the criteria within the pool system and how it is or isn't used to select and seed teams.



As for what determines a regional game, originally it was your region plus 200 miles.  I don't know where the 200 miles came from, I suppose someone in a suit and tie thought it was a reasonable number.  Then of course they found out there was a difference in how software calculated distances, so use of a certain software had to be established.   

Then a bunch of schools complained about how the 200 mile rule really doesn't help them and greatly helps others..........so the NCAA took the totally bureaucratic way out and included 'administrative regions' which the NCAA could then point at and say well you've got plenty of schools to play now (even if most of them aren't practical).   So they fixed the problem without actually fixing the problem and Calvin/Wheaton is still not in-region, but Wheaton/Whitworth is.

[KnightSlappy]

So they fixed the problem without actually fixing the problem and Calvin/Wheaton is still not in-region, but Wheaton/Whitworth is.

Right, Calvin gets to play in-region games with Mississippi College, but not with 5 of the 12 closest non-conference D3 shools. 

Facts I love: 20 of Calvin's closest 25 non-conference-D3 opponents are in the Midwest Region, 4 are in the GL Region, and 1 is in the West Region. 11 of those 25 schools are out-of-region.

[Just Bill]

This is my point. What's the benefit of maintaining a regional definition anymore? Do away with it.

[smedindy]

So they fixed the problem without actually fixing the problem and Calvin/Wheaton is still not in-region, but Wheaton/Whitworth is.

Right, Calvin gets to play in-region games with Mississippi College, but not with 5 of the 12 closest non-conference D3 shools. 

Facts I love: 20 of Calvin's closest 25 non-conference-D3 opponents are in the Midwest Region, 4 are in the GL Region, and 1 is in the West Region. 11 of those 25 schools are out-of-region.

Well, the solution is clear. Calvin needs to move itself! 

I was trying to cast about for answers on why the current situation evolved. But I wonder if there's more of an issue in other sports? I think the sensible thing would be at least to have an 'adjoining state' codicil attached to the administrative region, and a common-sense rule about holiday tournaments (and spring break trips).

Obviously, the regional records don't bother some teams, otherwise Hope wouldn't have just two D-3 games right now. (Teams on an "island' don't really count in that observation. You do what you can with what you gots...)

[Just Bill]

So we add an adjoining state rule and we add exemptions for holiday and spring break trips. What's left that's NOT in-region? Why bother?