Pool C

[Ralph Turner]

...
I concede that there are anecdotal pockets where the mileage falls just short.  Upstate NY, Calvin-Wheaton and a few others.

For the most part, I think that the value of the "non-region" game, which falls to "secondary criteria", is not appreciated by most fans.

It's not quite as anecdotal when it's your school.

Respectfully Knight, Michigan and Illinois are not even "adjacent"?

Would you accept the "200 mile" radius rule being "250 miles"?

[KnightSlappy]

...
I concede that there are anecdotal pockets where the mileage falls just short.  Upstate NY, Calvin-Wheaton and a few others.

For the most part, I think that the value of the "non-region" game, which falls to "secondary criteria", is not appreciated by most fans.

It's not quite as anecdotal when it's your school.

Respectfully Knight, Michigan and Illinois are not even "adjacent"?

Would you accept the "200 mile" radius rule being "250 miles"?

Sure they are. Michigan shares a legal border with Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio.

The Minnesota and Illinois borders are in the middle of lakes, but they exist.

[sac]

Technically Illinois and Michigan share waters of Lake Michigan, so that would help the Michigan schools.  It would also make Minnesota and Wisconsin in-region.

Its how D2 does things so obviously it has merits to them.  I do not know if Illinois/Michigan is considered adjacent in D2.  There are only a couple D2 schools in Illinois anyway, and the GLIAC schedules are pretty much full of conference competition anyway.

[ziggy]

I say let all fully initiated Division III opponents count.  I really would like to see an RPI for Division III, I think the massey ratings data base could generate one pretty easily.  Reward teams for playing difficult non-conference schedules and for doing well against the better teams in their conference.

We've been over this before.  Those sorts of ratings would be great, but they only work if teams are playing national schedules and getting way out of region on a regular basis.  It penalizes conferences with lots of in-conference games - and the NE region gets much stronger numbers because of how many teams are in such a close proximity.

I'm not a huge fan of how things are done now, but I've spent a decade thinking about this and I'm not sure how they could do it much better.

Adjoining states makes some sense, especially for those schools near the edge of their region.

But what schools in adjoining states are not covered by the Administrative Region rule and the 200-mile radius rule?

Calvin and Hope play an annual game with Carthage that is not considered in-region by current standards that would be with an adjoining states rule.

[thebear]

Larger States with vast regions near national borders.  If you draw a 200 mile circle around the Potsdam, Clarkson, St. Lawrence cluster, over 50% is in another country, I'm sure the same is true for the Northern Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota schools that are in D-III.

I still think it's stupid that New England & New Jersey are out of region for many Northern, Central & Western New York Schools.

Perhaps then they could schedule some decent non-conference games.

[KnightSlappy]

And that's the thing too. The 200 miles is by road, so schools with geographical limitations are hardly helped out by this rule.

[Mr. Ypsi]

And that's the thing too. The 200 miles is by road, so schools with geographical limitations are hardly helped out by this rule.

Yeah, you probably remember the running joke re: the CCIW/MIAA showdown - if they'd just keep the damn ferry running in winter, Carthage would be in region for both Hope and Calvin!

[magicman]

Larger States with vast regions near national borders.  If you draw a 200 mile circle around the Potsdam, Clarkson, St. Lawrence cluster, over 50% is in another country, I'm sure the same is true for the Northern Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota schools that are in D-III.

I still think it's stupid that New England & New Jersey are out of region for many Northern, Central & Western New York Schools.

Perhaps then they could schedule some decent non-conference games.

Excellent point Bear! Plattsburgh State has those same issues as Canada is only 15 minutes north of us.  At least we have Vermont next to us but not a lot of schools outside of Middlebury, (who we schedule just about every year) would be considered a decent non-conference game. Occasionally Norwich has a competitive  team but not many schools in Vermont have a very strong S.O.S. I guess we have to be happy that we can find D3 opponents close by even if it does drag our owp and oowp down. Our coach has tried to get stronger opponents within our region to do an alternating home and home series. They want us to go there but not many want to come here. SLU and Clarkson usually do every year but hard to get anyone else in the E8 or LL that are willing to make the long haul north.

[sac]

And that's the thing too. The 200 miles is by road, so schools with geographical limitations are hardly helped out by this rule.

Yeah, you probably remember the running joke re: the CCIW/MIAA showdown - if they'd just keep the damn ferry running in winter, Carthage would be in region for both Hope and Calvin!

Only the magic ferry Mr Y.

[Gregory Sager]

Larger States with vast regions near national borders.  If you draw a 200 mile circle around the Potsdam, Clarkson, St. Lawrence cluster, over 50% is in another country, I'm sure the same is true for the Northern Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota schools that are in D-III.

I still think it's stupid that New England & New Jersey are out of region for many Northern, Central & Western New York Schools.

Perhaps then they could schedule some decent non-conference games.

Excellent point Bear! Plattsburgh State has those same issues as Canada is only 15 minutes north of us.  At least we have Vermont next to us but not a lot of schools outside of Middlebury, (who we schedule just about every year) would be considered a decent non-conference game. Occasionally Norwich has a competitive  team but not many schools in Vermont have a very strong S.O.S. I guess we have to be happy that we can find D3 opponents close by even if it does drag our owp and oowp down. Our coach has tried to get stronger opponents within our region to do an alternating home and home series. They want us to go there but not many want to come here. SLU and Clarkson usually do every year but hard to get anyone else in the E8 or LL that are willing to make the long haul north.

It will definitely help out the North Country schools if and when SUNY-Canton joins D3. The 'roos are currently in the D3 exploratory phase.

[Ralph Turner]

Larger States with vast regions near national borders.  If you draw a 200 mile circle around the Potsdam, Clarkson, St. Lawrence cluster, over 50% is in another country, I'm sure the same is true for the Northern Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota schools that are in D-III.

I still think it's stupid that New England & New Jersey are out of region for many Northern, Central & Western New York Schools.

Perhaps then they could schedule some decent non-conference games.

Excellent point Bear! Plattsburgh State has those same issues as Canada is only 15 minutes north of us.  At least we have Vermont next to us but not a lot of schools outside of Middlebury, (who we schedule just about every year) would be considered a decent non-conference game. Occasionally Norwich has a competitive  team but not many schools in Vermont have a very strong S.O.S. I guess we have to be happy that we can find D3 opponents close by even if it does drag our owp and oowp down. Our coach has tried to get stronger opponents within our region to do an alternating home and home series. They want us to go there but not many want to come here. SLU and Clarkson usually do every year but hard to get anyone else in the E8 or LL that are willing to make the long haul north.

It will definitely help out the North Country schools if and when SUNY-Canton joins D3. The 'roos are currently in the D3 exploratory phase.

Two more conference games each in the SUNYAC or NEAC...

[Gregory Sager]

Larger States with vast regions near national borders.  If you draw a 200 mile circle around the Potsdam, Clarkson, St. Lawrence cluster, over 50% is in another country, I'm sure the same is true for the Northern Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota schools that are in D-III.

I still think it's stupid that New England & New Jersey are out of region for many Northern, Central & Western New York Schools.

Perhaps then they could schedule some decent non-conference games.

Excellent point Bear! Plattsburgh State has those same issues as Canada is only 15 minutes north of us.  At least we have Vermont next to us but not a lot of schools outside of Middlebury, (who we schedule just about every year) would be considered a decent non-conference game. Occasionally Norwich has a competitive  team but not many schools in Vermont have a very strong S.O.S. I guess we have to be happy that we can find D3 opponents close by even if it does drag our owp and oowp down. Our coach has tried to get stronger opponents within our region to do an alternating home and home series. They want us to go there but not many want to come here. SLU and Clarkson usually do every year but hard to get anyone else in the E8 or LL that are willing to make the long haul north.

It will definitely help out the North Country schools if and when SUNY-Canton joins D3. The 'roos are currently in the D3 exploratory phase.

Two more conference games each in the SUNYAC or NEAC...

An an extra in-region non-conference game for each of the North Country schools who won't be in the same league as the 'roos.

[magicman]

Larger States with vast regions near national borders.  If you draw a 200 mile circle around the Potsdam, Clarkson, St. Lawrence cluster, over 50% is in another country, I'm sure the same is true for the Northern Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota schools that are in D-III.

I still think it's stupid that New England & New Jersey are out of region for many Northern, Central & Western New York Schools.

Perhaps then they could schedule some decent non-conference games.

Excellent point Bear! Plattsburgh State has those same issues as Canada is only 15 minutes north of us.  At least we have Vermont next to us but not a lot of schools outside of Middlebury, (who we schedule just about every year) would be considered a decent non-conference game. Occasionally Norwich has a competitive  team but not many schools in Vermont have a very strong S.O.S. I guess we have to be happy that we can find D3 opponents close by even if it does drag our owp and oowp down. Our coach has tried to get stronger opponents within our region to do an alternating home and home series. They want us to go there but not many want to come here. SLU and Clarkson usually do every year but hard to get anyone else in the E8 or LL that are willing to make the long haul north.

It will definitely help out the North Country schools if and when SUNY-Canton joins D3. The 'roos are currently in the D3 exploratory phase.

Two more conference games each in the SUNYAC or NEAC...

An an extra in-region non-conference game for each of the North Country schools who won't be in the same league as the 'roos.

I would think they will join NEAC where the schools are closer to their level of play.

[thebear]

SUNY Canton's President has already said he wants them to join the SUNYAC, but Morrisville and SUNYIT both found the NEAC easier pickings. 

Canton in the current SUNYAC would strand Plattsburgh without a travel partner, and mean two road trips to the far end of the state for the other teams in hoops & hockey.

Even a ten team conference is at a disadvantage with the magic number for bids at 6.5.  One answer might be an SUNYAC East SUNYAC West each with 7 teams, and thus getting two AQ's. 

Then we could pick up Cobleskill, Morrisville, Canton & SUNYIT.

Alignment would be:

East
New Paltz
Oneonta
Plattsburgh
Potsdam
Cobleskill
Canton
SUNYIT

West
Morrisville
Cortland
Oswego
Geneseo
Brockport
Fredonia
Buff State

They could play double round robin (12 games), and still have room for decent out of conference games.

[Ralph Turner]

SUNY Canton's President has already said he wants them to join the SUNYAC, but Morrisville and SUNYIT both found the NEAC easier pickings. 

Canton in the current SUNYAC would strand Plattsburgh without a travel partner, and mean two road trips to the far end of the state for the other teams in hoops & hockey.

Even a ten team conference is at a disadvantage with the magic number for bids at 6.5.  One answer might be an SUNYAC East SUNYAC West each with 7 teams, and thus getting two AQ's. 

Then we could pick up Cobleskill, Morrisville, Canton & SUNYIT.

Alignment would be:

East
New Paltz
Oneonta
Plattsburgh
Potsdam
Cobleskill
Canton
SUNYIT

West
Morrisville
Cortland
Oswego
Geneseo
Brockport
Fredonia
Buff State

They could play double round robin (12 games), and still have room for decent out of conference games.

Respectfully, no! 14 teams in 2 divisions does earn 2 Pool A bids.  McMurry is a member of the 15-team ASC. We have had the two division format for 10 years and the NCAA has not changed its policy to permit us 2 Pool A bids.