Pool C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's still puzzling that Dickinson stayed ahead of Stevenson in the final super-secret regional rankings.

Dickinson (21-6): .778 / .529 / 1-1
Stevenson (19-8): .704 / .530 / 4-4

Keeping Dickinson ahead of Stevenson is not clearly incorrect. Dickinson won two more games against the same SOS. Sure, you want to bump Stevenson up for the RRO, but it's not immediately clear that it should make up for the difference in winning percentage (remember: SOS already indicates their schedules are equally difficult).

I'm very sympathetic to the idea that vRRO is a form of double-counting the SOS. I'm fine with using it as a sort of tiebreaker that shouldn't be placed on equal footing with WP and SOS.

To me, these teams are virtually identical.  If they don't have a head to head or common opponents, I think I might rely on other factors to make the determination.

I saw Stevenson play at the beginning of the year (Hoopsville tournament) they were raw and lacked chemistry, but that is a tournament team.  It would be tough not to rely on the eye test given how closely the numbers match up.

[AO]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

[sac]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season. 

[AO]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

[Bucket]

I was told today, but not first-hand, that the vRRO was considered like a winning percentage and not as "results" which meant Stevenson's .500 in eight or ten games was looked down at compared to Dickinson's .667 in three games. Dickinson was basically rewarded for playing in a less challenging conference and playing enough teams to boost their SOS but not hurt their vRRO. Stevenson is now questioning how they schedule (as are many teams, I suspect), because the overriding message over the years is play better opponents (see Staten Island, Albertus Magnus, etc.), but when Stevenson does do that compared to Dickinson... they are punished for it. The interview I had with Dickinson's head coach was eye-opening and disturbing... it was the interview right before Steve Ulrich's on Monday.

Wow, placing a greater emphasis on winning percentage as opposed to results when looking at vRRO. That's ridiculous, and I agree--it's rewarding a team for playing a less challenging schedule. And the Dickinson-Stephenson comparison isn't isolated. Take Middlebury and Bowdoin.

My seven-year-old articulated it perfectly at the dinner table last night: "This doesn't make sense, Dad. Middlebury and Bowdoin had the same conference record (and Middlebury finished ahead of Bowdoin in the conference), Middlebury beat Bowdoin, and Bowdoin lost in the conference quarterfinals while Middlebury advanced to the semi-finals and lost to a ranked team."

"Right, but Bowdoin lost four fewer games this year than Middlebury did."

"But, Middlebury played tougher teams--Plattsburgh, Alvernia, Stevenson, St. Mary's. If we switched schedules with Bowdoin, I bet we'd have the better record."

That's a pretty deep conversation to have with a seven-year old.

I honestly didn't exaggerate, though I should mention that there were some "that's not fair"s sprinkled in as well. Only-child syndrome. The kid is already smarter and wiser than I am (Cue the "That's not saying much, Bucket" chorus)

[sac]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

[AO]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

And they might have lost a bunch more games along the way.  It's not as if they don't travel, and that there are no high SOS teams within reasonable distance.  Even if they found a couple better road games, it might not have been a big enough boost this year.  This is a big division with a lot of good teams.  It's not as if a lot of their weaker opponents are getting selected for the tourney either.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

And they might have lost a bunch more games along the way.  It's not as if they don't travel, and that there are no high SOS teams within reasonable distance.  Even if they found a couple better road games, it might not have been a big enough boost this year.  This is a big division with a lot of good teams.  It's not as if a lot of their weaker opponents are getting selected for the tourney either.

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

[Pat Coleman]

One thing Staten Island could have done to help itself was play New Jersey City instead of Rivier in its own tournament. That's something that cost zero money and that CSI had all sorts of control over. They could well have played both Randolph and NJCU but instead played a middling team from a poor conference.

[Pat Coleman]

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

It's possible, though, to play Western Connecticut or Wesleyan or Albertus Magnus instead of Kean or FDU-Florham. Those are all similar distance to some of the NJAC schools and get you into some SOS-rich conferences or in the case of Albertus, a team that is apparently begging for games.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

It's possible, though, to play Western Connecticut or Wesleyan or Albertus Magnus instead of Kean or FDU-Florham. Those are all similar distance to some of the NJAC schools and get you into some SOS-rich conferences or in the case of Albertus, a team that is apparently begging for games.

Yep.  I don't know how difficult it is to match up the teams you want to play with open dates.  I suspect it's a little easier down by NY than it is in New England with so many teams trying to fill out slates.

I wonder how difficult it would be to go in with another NYC program to sponsor a tournament.  If you each put up incentive $$ for one decent team and you set it up so you get to play both coming in, that's got to be at least equal, if not cheaper, than two trips.  I think you could get some NE and PA schools to do that - especially for a weekend in (or near) New York.

[sac]

One thing Staten Island could have done to help itself was play New Jersey City instead of Rivier in its own tournament. That's something that cost zero money and that CSI had all sorts of control over. They could well have played both Randolph and NJCU but instead played a middling team from a poor conference.

This one move would have only boosted the SOS by .004, approximately.

Staten Island really needs something more dramatic like playing a .700 or better team, preferably on the road. 

If they replace this schedule with two .700 or better teams, even lose both games they might have made the tournament.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

One thing Staten Island could have done to help itself was play New Jersey City instead of Rivier in its own tournament. That's something that cost zero money and that CSI had all sorts of control over. They could well have played both Randolph and NJCU but instead played a middling team from a poor conference.

This one move would have only boosted the SOS by .004, approximately.

Staten Island really needs something more dramatic like playing a .700 or better team, preferably on the road. 

If they replace this schedule with two .700 or better teams, even lose both games they might have made the tournament.

They need to get into New England more.  The top teams in the CCC are almost always over .700 - the only problem is you never know which teams are going to be in the top from year to year.  Makes scheduling tough.

[KnightSlappy]

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

It's possible, though, to play Western Connecticut or Wesleyan or Albertus Magnus instead of Kean or FDU-Florham. Those are all similar distance to some of the NJAC schools and get you into some SOS-rich conferences or in the case of Albertus, a team that is apparently begging for games.

Teams with NCAA Tournament aspirations should be lining up to play Albertus. They're going to shred their conference and give you good OWP. The fact that coaches don't schedule them indicates an endemic misunderstanding of how opponents affect your criteria, and how the criteria gets you selected.

As far as tournament resume goes, you don't need to play good teams so much as teams that look good based on the numbers.

[pjunito]

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

It's possible, though, to play Western Connecticut or Wesleyan or Albertus Magnus instead of Kean or FDU-Florham. Those are all similar distance to some of the NJAC schools and get you into some SOS-rich conferences or in the case of Albertus, a team that is apparently begging for games.

Teams with NCAA Tournament aspirations should be lining up to play Albertus. They're going to shred their conference and give you good OWP. The fact that coaches don't schedule them indicates an endemic misunderstanding of how opponents affect your criteria, and how the criteria gets you selected.

As far as tournament resume goes, you don't need to play good teams so much as teams that look good based on the numbers.

I also think teams like Albertus and CSI, have to understand that they play in a one bid league. I think it causes a lot of issues 1. The fear that top tier schools in major conference won't want to schedule these top teams in poor conferences. 2. The fear that scheduling these top tier schools and losing won't help their pool C bid chances anyway. 3. So, how do you judge these teams?

I don't think there is a great way to identify which teams are tournament worthy without watching them play a lot. So, the coaches have to understand this and make one of two decisions. Schedule different and hope your resume is good enough or win your conference tournament (then when you play in the tournament, make some noise.)