Pool C

[gordonmann]

It certainly happens, as it did with the MIAA.  But that's part of the choice that a conference makes in awarding its bid to the tournament winner. 

Whether its intentional or not, they are saying, "We'll take a chance that our top team will be strong enough to get into the tournament, even if it loses in the conference tournament."  Or alternatively, "We hope our strongest team gets in the tournament but, at the end of the day, it's more important to give a better experience to all the teams involved in the tournament than to exclusively reward the one that distinguished itself over the course of the season." 

That approach isn't wrong.  It's what allows us to have Cinderella stories and makes for exciting basketball in the final week at 300+ schools instead of a fraction of that.  But it has consequences.

And it's a decision that a lot of conferences can make with knowledge on their side.  Rightly or wrongly, there's a definite pattern to which teams get at-large bids and that makes it easier for conferences to make an educated risk/reward decision.

For some conferences (the Power Five), it's a very safe bet that they will get at least one at-large team in the tournament every year.  For other conferences, like the CUNYAC which has had 2 at-large bids in 10 years, it's a very safe bet they won't get an at-large bid.  So it's their call on whether the large risk of getting two teams is worth it.

http://www.d3hoops.com/guidebook/2013-14/2013_Conference_Guidebook_-_Comparison.pdf

[hickory_cornhusker]

Here's a simple solution to the Staten Island controversy...the conference could award the NCAA bid to the regular season championship instead of the tournament championship.

There were two conferences (SAA and SCAC) that had tournament finals with no particular meaning.  In the SAA, everyone knew Centre would get the Pool B bid no matter what Oglethorpe did.  In the SCAC, Centenary wasn't eligible for the postseason, so no matter what happened in that final, Trinity was going.  The games were still excellent.

I don't think there is a rule that the autobid has to go to the tournament winner, so you could still have the tournament, but Staten Island doesn't get hurt by their first bad game in three months.

While there is no rule that says you have to give your bid to your conference tournament champion, you do have to give the bid to your tournament champion if you want to have the conference tournament games exempt from your 25 total games. So you can do that but teams can only play 22 or 23 games during the year if they want to participate in the conference tournament (Bylaw 17.1.4.5.1.1.b)

(SAA must have gotten a waiver while they were serving their two years)

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Here's a simple solution to the Staten Island controversy...the conference could award the NCAA bid to the regular season championship instead of the tournament championship.

There were two conferences (SAA and SCAC) that had tournament finals with no particular meaning.  In the SAA, everyone knew Centre would get the Pool B bid no matter what Oglethorpe did.  In the SCAC, Centenary wasn't eligible for the postseason, so no matter what happened in that final, Trinity was going.  The games were still excellent.

I don't think there is a rule that the autobid has to go to the tournament winner, so you could still have the tournament, but Staten Island doesn't get hurt by their first bad game in three months.

This isn't entirely true. The SCAC's scenario only came up when Centenary played Trinity (TX) for the title game leaving the only scenario that if Trinity won or lost they would get the AQ. If any team had beaten Centenary, the tournament would have decided the AQ. If anyone besides Trinity played Centenary in the title game, Trinity only would have gotten the bid, I believe, if Centenary had won.

As for the SAA, that all changes next year when they have the AQ... and Centre was in a unique situation where they were pretty well tied up with the Pool B... but you just don't know how that tournament could have changed things.

[Ralph Turner]

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

It's possible, though, to play Western Connecticut or Wesleyan or Albertus Magnus instead of Kean or FDU-Florham. Those are all similar distance to some of the NJAC schools and get you into some SOS-rich conferences or in the case of Albertus, a team that is apparently begging for games.

+1!

[Gregory Sager]

I gotta stick up for Staten Island against the elitists. IF Eastern Mennonite and Ramapo hadn't slid down to mediocrity, their non-conference would have been fairly decent.

Eastern Mennonite actually had a better season this year than it had in 2011-12 or 2012-13. The days when EMU was a serious power seemed to have vanished with the turn of the decade. But, yeah, Ramapo had a shocking and uncharacteristic slide south this season.

[AO]

I gotta stick up for Staten Island against the elitists. IF Eastern Mennonite and Ramapo hadn't slid down to mediocrity, their non-conference would have been fairly decent.

Eastern Mennonite actually had a better season this year than it had in 2011-12 or 2012-13. The days when EMU was a serious power seemed to have vanished with the turn of the decade. But, yeah, Ramapo had a shocking and uncharacteristic slide south this season.

The dolphins would have played SOS booster Mary Washington if they had beaten EMU.  Staten Island's last game was an upset, their first game probably wasn't.  They could have been 25-2, and have it not be enough when they lose the only remotely difficult games they had.

[Gregory Sager]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

And they might have lost a bunch more games along the way.  It's not as if they don't travel, and that there are no high SOS teams within reasonable distance.  Even if they found a couple better road games, it might not have been a big enough boost this year.  This is a big division with a lot of good teams.  It's not as if a lot of their weaker opponents are getting selected for the tourney either.

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

Do we all see the irony here? The whole point behind the regionality that's impressed into the way that D3 does things is to prevent travel, so that nobody misses any class time.

[KnightSlappy]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

And they might have lost a bunch more games along the way.  It's not as if they don't travel, and that there are no high SOS teams within reasonable distance.  Even if they found a couple better road games, it might not have been a big enough boost this year.  This is a big division with a lot of good teams.  It's not as if a lot of their weaker opponents are getting selected for the tourney either.

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

Do we all see the irony here? The whole point behind the regionality that's impressed into the way that D3 does things is to prevent travel, so that nobody misses any class time.

Albertus Magnus is 99 miles away.

[pjunito]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

And they might have lost a bunch more games along the way.  It's not as if they don't travel, and that there are no high SOS teams within reasonable distance.  Even if they found a couple better road games, it might not have been a big enough boost this year.  This is a big division with a lot of good teams.  It's not as if a lot of their weaker opponents are getting selected for the tourney either.

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

Do we all see the irony here? The whole point behind the regionality that's impressed into the way that D3 does things is to prevent travel, so that nobody misses any class time.

Albertus Magnus is 99 miles away.

Yea, but that could be up to a 4 hour ride; the BQE, Cross Bronx, and CT Turnpike are brutal highways.

[sac]

Here's a simple solution to the Staten Island controversy...the conference could award the NCAA bid to the regular season championship instead of the tournament championship.

There were two conferences (SAA and SCAC) that had tournament finals with no particular meaning.  In the SAA, everyone knew Centre would get the Pool B bid no matter what Oglethorpe did.  In the SCAC, Centenary wasn't eligible for the postseason, so no matter what happened in that final, Trinity was going.  The games were still excellent.

I don't think there is a rule that the autobid has to go to the tournament winner, so you could still have the tournament, but Staten Island doesn't get hurt by their first bad game in three months.

This.  One thousand times- THIS.

Yes, but the flip side of the coin is, how often does a conference get two in when they otherwise would have only gotten one? (MIAA this year getting in Calvin b/c they beat Hope in the tournament final)

23 years of our tournament, 11 instances where the MIAA regular season champion failed to win the tournament.  Regular season champion did not receive a bid on six occasions.  Interesting to note in those years the lone MIAA rep went one and done except Hope in 2002.

1998  Albion won tournament, Hope received at-large bid and made it to Salem
1999  Defiance won tournament only bid, Co-Champs Hope/Calvin weren't viable candidates

Pools Era
2002  Hope won tournament, Calvin did not receive bid
2003  Hope won tournament,  Co-Champs Albion/Hope, Albion did not receive bid
2004  Calvin won tournament, Hope did not receive bid
2005  Calvin won tournament, Albion received bid
2006  Hope won tournament, Calvin received bid
2007  Calvin won tournament, Hope received bid
2009  Hope won tournament,  Calvin did not receive bid
2010  Hope won tournament,  Calvin did not receive bid
2014  Calvin won tournament,  Hope received bid

1998, 2005, 2007, 2014 probably qualify as years where the MIAA got 2 in the tournament when they otherwise would not have.  2005 Calvin was borderline.  2006 Hope had just 2 losses going into selection Sunday.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I thought Dave had a good interview with the Staten Island head coach.  One of the things he revealed is that he's part time and Staten Island doesn't have a big budget to do a lot of traveling.

Its always been a concern of mine that the NCAA was putting requirements on schools who might not be able to simply afford what the NCAA wants them to do.

Requirements?  Are you talking about the minimum number of sports or the fees to maintain membership?  Nobody is required to chase after a better tournament resume.

In fact there are if you want a realistic chance to participate in the post-season.

?  Staten Island is low budget and they made it last year.  It took a large upset to keep them out of the post-season this year.

well a bigger budget would have allowed them to travel more and maybe build a stronger SOS, thus if they were upset this year they might have still made the tournament.

And they might have lost a bunch more games along the way.  It's not as if they don't travel, and that there are no high SOS teams within reasonable distance.  Even if they found a couple better road games, it might not have been a big enough boost this year.  This is a big division with a lot of good teams.  It's not as if a lot of their weaker opponents are getting selected for the tourney either.

It's about institutional philosophy.  Some schools aren't going to spend the money required to travel and compete the way other schools will (or can).  It's just the reality of d3.  If they want to improve their national standing, it's going to cost more money.

You can't really have it both ways.

Do we all see the irony here? The whole point behind the regionality that's impressed into the way that D3 does things is to prevent travel, so that nobody misses any class time.

Albertus Magnus is 99 miles away.

Yea, but that could be up to a 4 hour ride; the BQE, Cross Bronx, and CT Turnpike are brutal highways.

It's three hours on a clear day.  It could be five or six with traffic.

[Just Bill]

Here's a simple solution to the Staten Island controversy...the conference could award the NCAA bid to the regular season championship instead of the tournament championship.

There were two conferences (SAA and SCAC) that had tournament finals with no particular meaning.  In the SAA, everyone knew Centre would get the Pool B bid no matter what Oglethorpe did.  In the SCAC, Centenary wasn't eligible for the postseason, so no matter what happened in that final, Trinity was going.  The games were still excellent.

I don't think there is a rule that the autobid has to go to the tournament winner, so you could still have the tournament, but Staten Island doesn't get hurt by their first bad game in three months.

While there is no rule that says you have to give your bid to your conference tournament champion, you do have to give the bid to your tournament champion if you want to have the conference tournament games exempt from your 25 total games. So you can do that but teams can only play 22 or 23 games during the year if they want to participate in the conference tournament (Bylaw 17.1.4.5.1.1.b)

(SAA must have gotten a waiver while they were serving their two years)

Entire conference tournament only counts as one game, so you'd be limited to 24 in the regular season if your conference opted not to give the AQ to the tournament champion.

[HOPEful]

Here's a simple solution to the Staten Island controversy...the conference could award the NCAA bid to the regular season championship instead of the tournament championship.

There were two conferences (SAA and SCAC) that had tournament finals with no particular meaning.  In the SAA, everyone knew Centre would get the Pool B bid no matter what Oglethorpe did.  In the SCAC, Centenary wasn't eligible for the postseason, so no matter what happened in that final, Trinity was going.  The games were still excellent.

I don't think there is a rule that the autobid has to go to the tournament winner, so you could still have the tournament, but Staten Island doesn't get hurt by their first bad game in three months.

This.  One thousand times- THIS.

Yes, but the flip side of the coin is, how often does a conference get two in when they otherwise would have only gotten one? (MIAA this year getting in Calvin b/c they beat Hope in the tournament final)

23 years of our tournament, 11 instances where the MIAA regular season champion failed to win the tournament.  Regular season champion did not receive a bid on six occasions.  Interesting to note in those years the lone MIAA rep went one and done except Hope in 2002.

1998  Albion won tournament, Hope received at-large bid and made it to Salem
1999  Defiance won tournament only bid, Co-Champs Hope/Calvin weren't viable candidates

Pools Era
2002  Hope won tournament, Calvin did not receive bid
2003  Hope won tournament,  Co-Champs Albion/Hope, Albion did not receive bid
2004  Calvin won tournament, Hope did not receive bid
2005  Calvin won tournament, Albion received bid
2006  Hope won tournament, Calvin received bid
2007  Calvin won tournament, Hope received bid
2009  Hope won tournament,  Calvin did not receive bid
2010  Hope won tournament,  Calvin did not receive bid
2014  Calvin won tournament,  Hope received bid

1998, 2005, 2007, 2014 probably qualify as years where the MIAA got 2 in the tournament when they otherwise would not have.  2005 Calvin was borderline.  2006 Hope had just 2 losses going into selection Sunday.

Can you really count a co-champion not getting a bid when their couterpart did? (2003)

And since 2005 was borderline, let's give it a .5... that means 4.5 times out of 11, or roughly 40% of the time! That, plus the added value of the tournament games, equals worth the risk to me...

Also, I really like how the MIAA recently changed their tournament format so that only the top 4 teams make it. 1 v 4 and 2 v 3... 1 and 2 get home games winners play at highest remaining seed in final. Mitigates the risk a little... (This season, #2 Calvin got to play #3 Albion at home... in the past, that game would have been played at the #1 seed, Hope, and would have been arugably the best "home crowd" cheering section Albion had all year...)

[KnightSlappy]

Also, I really like how the MIAA recently changed their tournament format so that only the top 4 teams make it. 1 v 4 and 2 v 3... 1 and 2 get home games winners play at highest remaining seed in final. Mitigates the risk a little... (This season, #2 Calvin got to play #3 Albion at home... in the past, that game would have been played at the #1 seed, Hope, and would have been arugably the best "home crowd" cheering section Albion had all year...)

Also Trine may have had a few more fans pulling for them in overtime. 

[Just Bill]

I've always agreed that awarding the auto bid to the tournament champ over the regular season champ doesn't necessarily make sense. However, I have attended conference tournament games with no AQ on the line, and in my experience the excitement and intensity is severely diminished.

As a coach or administrator I would like the AQ to go to the regular season champ, but as a fan, I don't really care about those games unless stakes higher than a wood plaque and bragging rights are on the line.