Pool C

[AmherstStudent05]

Now, if other conferences feel that the NESCAC's hybrid round robin scheduling, or even a straight single round robin schedule, is most conducive to success in the NCAA Tournament, then I encourage them to consider a change!  As long as it is within NCAA guidelines, have at it.  And, if it is uniformity we are after, as an Amherst fan, I would have my own thoughts on this if I actually cared how other conferences conducted their affairs.  Again, how about starting preseason practices two weeks later?  How about abolishing all JV teams?  How about preventing all (non medical) redshirts (not sure if this actually happens, but when I was a student it was rumored to be a practice among some other DIII schools)?

Redshirting was abolished starting with the 2004-05 season.

Helpful to learn what other conferences actually do before you complain about what they do.

Pat, I think it is fair to say that your above post is somewhat cryptic, so forgive me if I am not reading it right, but if that post was directed at me then I think it is clear that you have fundamentally misread /misunderstood what I had written previously.  To say it again, I DO NOT CARE how other conferences or other teams arrange their affairs, so long as it is within NCAA regulations.  The CCIW can have a triple round robin or spend millions of dollars flying their team all across the country on a private jet and staying in first class hotels so that they can have their pick of whatever D3 teams they want.  Fine by me.  I am not coming close to "complain[ing]" about any of it.

My other point, which, frankly, I would have thought you would have understood and been sympathetic to, is that the idea that the NESCAC schools are somehow manipulating their internal rules to maximize their chances of getting as many teams in the NCAA Tournament is downright ridiculous.  As far as I know, the NESCAC has never played a complete double round robin, even in the years when the NESCAC schools were pointedly removing themselves from NCAA Tournament consideration.  I also noted that while conference scheduling may be one difference Amherst has with schools from other regions, historically there are other differences as well and these differences certainly hinder, on a relative basis, Amherst's competitive position relative to its D3 peers, but have nonetheless been taken because Amherst believes them to be in the best interest of our student athletes and our College.  As I noted, we start practice two weeks late and we do not have a JV team.  I also threw out the redshirting while acknowledging that I had no idea whether this practice actually ever existed or not.  Apparently it did up until my senior year.  You can correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, Amherst never granted non-medical redshirts to any of its basketball players (in fact, the only redshirt I am aware of is Ray Corrigan who tore his achilles early in his senior year.)  So maybe we were at something of a competitive disadvantage there for a few years.  Again, I don't care, and I didn't care when I first heard, during my first trip to Salem in 2004, that this was a practice used by some schools.  If it was within the rules, I wish other schools well even if Amherst chose to do something different.  All I am saying is that whatever you think of Amherst, the idea that we -- or our peer NESCAC schools -- are an NCAA Tournament maximizing institution is pretty demonstrably false. I like to think that we enjoy our success when the stars align for us and respect the success of others when it isn't our time.

[Gregory Sager]

Also, Wesleyan plays both Amherst and Williams in non-conference games and Colby plays Bowdoin.  See, when Gregory Sager says the NESCAC already plays a single round robin, that is not quite right.  Yes, for conference play, the NESCAC plays a single round robin, however, for scheduling purposes (which is the conversation we are having here), there are some "mini" conferences within the NESCAC that do play double round robins each year.  For instance, Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan comprise the "Little III" which long predates the NESCAC.  Out of conference games do not go towards NESCAC standings, but they are used, along with the regular season NESCAC games, to crown a "Little III Champion" each year.  Bates, Bowdoin, and Colby have a similar arrangement that occurs each year without fail.  As far as I know, these are the only double-round robin games in the NESCAC.

It's still a single round-robin, AS05. The extra non-conference games that the AWW triad and the CBB triad play constitute only 11% of a full NESCAC round-robin.

[smedindy]

I don't care who or what league it is. Without a double-round robin it's not a real true conference champ. The NCAC, when Wabash and Hiram joined a few years ago, had a weird schedule where Wabash and Earlham would only play Hiram and Allegheny once, and that forced some Ohio teams into single games. It really helped the team that avoided Wooster on a roadie to Wooster, or Witt on a roadie to Witt.

After a shuffle (no Earlham, add DPU), they came to their senses and double rounded it. When a conference gets bloated, like some, they split into divisions a double round one division and single round the other. That can really affect a race depending on where you play someone.

As for the other stuff, the NESCAC partisans have lost a lot of credibility stating false facts about redshirting, their Massey rating, and other things. I expected better.

[nescac1]

(1) smedindy, you obviously didn't read a word of AmherstStudent05's post.  The only person who has lost credibility here is you, since you were the one who falsely accused NESCAC of "jimmying its schedule" to secure Pool C bids, which was the ridiculous comment that started this whole idiotic and totally one-sided debate.  What you said is false.  We proved to you it was false.  You then completely ignored our comprehensive rebuttals of that statement (most importantly, the fact that (a) NESCAC played the same schedule prior to even participating in the NCAA tournament, which standing alone defeats your claim, and (b) NESCAC puts itself at a competitive disadvantage by limiting practice time early in the season, which belies an all-consuming interest in earning NCAA bids), and try to move the goalposts.  Seriously, dude, just drop it. 

(And by the way, my comment about Massey was not false.  I stated that NESCAC was ranked somewhere around 10-15 EARLIER in the season, which was the last I heard about Massey rankings, and which is absolutely true.  I hadn't seen the more recent rankings ... which I still think are on the low side). 

(2) I'd like you to say to the face of any of the Amherst players who busted ass to win this year's NESCAC title that they are not a "real" conference champ.  Winning the NESCAC title is damn, damn tough.  Just about every team in NESCAC could really play this year.  This year's NESCAC title game was one of the best-played games you will see in Division 3.  Heck, Amherst won a national championship in a year they couldn't manage to do it.  That is one of the single dumbest comments ever made on D3hoops.

(3) Once again, what is the annual obsession with NESCAC with some posters?  When CCIW didn't have a conference tournament, no one from NESCAC questioned the legitimacy of the CCIW.  When the NCAC had some weird schedule that you are talking about, no one in the NESCAC cared.  I would understand the bitterness if NESCAC fans were high-and-mighty and claimed that our conference is somehow superior to all others in D3.  But that is an imagined slight.  No one in NESCAC ever asserted any such thing.  We've never denigrated the caliber of basketball played elsewhere in the country.  Nor have we claimed that their participation in the NCAA tournament was an illegitimate product of gaming the system.   

Toad (and I certainly agree) opined that WIAC is the best basketball conference.  NESCAC is one of several closely grouped behind them in the next tier, along with CCIW, ODAC, UAA (most years, I think UAA was down a bit this year), and maybe one or two others.  I do believe that NESCAC and CCIW are neck-and-neck for second-best overall, but ODAC and UAA have good arguments there as well.

As we've pointed out, each conference has its own advantages, and own constraints, that is the general point that folks are missing by nitpicking over one or two comments. This should be a fairly uncontroversial proposition.  NESCAC schools have to win an eleven team league.  That's tougher than winning an eight team league.  NESCAC schools have constraints on travel, recruiting and scheduling that most other schools (outside of UAA and a few others) don't share.  NESCAC schools also have certain advantages that other conferences don't have, like not having to face a double round robin, and the ability to recruit nationally.  It cuts both ways. 

(4) All we ask is that folks don't constantly, year after year, attack the legitimacy of NESCAC teams participating in the NCAA tournament, or even, as smedindy just did, the legitimacy of the NESCAC championship.  It's not fair to the schools, and it's most certainly not fair to the NESCAC kids.  In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the annual deep runs by NESCAC teams in the NCAA tournament. 

If you are annoyed by the NCAA, that is fine, and understandable.  But to conflate that with demonstrably false attacks on the motivations and accomplishments of NESCAC schools and players is just silly. 

[y_jack_lok]

I don't care who or what league it is. Without a double-round robin it's not a real true conference champ.

This can present a problem for the ODAC, which has 12 schools. A double round robin means 22 conference games, leaving room for only three non-conference games, thus limiting the chance to play other in region opponents and ultimately affecting regional ranking, SOS, wins versus RROs, and all those other comparative things that get evaluated when it comes time to decide who gets in the NCAA tournament.

[bopol]

(4) All we ask is that folks don't constantly, year after year, attack the legitimacy of NESCAC teams participating in the NCAA tournament, or even, as smedindy just did, the legitimacy of the NESCAC championship.  It's not fair to the schools, and it's most certainly not fair to the NESCAC kids.  In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the annual deep runs by NESCAC teams in the NCAA tournament. 

Bowdoin didn't belong in the tournament by the criteria published by the NCAA.  They happen to be a NESCAC team.   

BTW, the 5 tournament teams that Carthage beat are now a combined 8-2, with 3 teams in the Sweet 16.

[sac]

I don't care who or what league it is. Without a double-round robin it's not a real true conference champ.

This can present a problem for the ODAC, which has 12 schools. A double round robin means 22 conference games, leaving room for only three non-conference games, thus limiting the chance to play other in region opponents and ultimately affecting regional ranking, SOS, wins versus RROs, and all those other comparative things that get evaluated when it comes time to decide who gets in the NCAA tournament.

The ODAC also has the poster child Pool C selection for why RRO's are dumb when Randolph at 15-6 with 9 RRO's all from conference play was selected last year.

From watching the South Region rankings over the years the ODAC has no problem at all getting 3 sometimes four teams ranked.

[y_jack_lok]

I don't care who or what league it is. Without a double-round robin it's not a real true conference champ.

This can present a problem for the ODAC, which has 12 schools. A double round robin means 22 conference games, leaving room for only three non-conference games, thus limiting the chance to play other in region opponents and ultimately affecting regional ranking, SOS, wins versus RROs, and all those other comparative things that get evaluated when it comes time to decide who gets in the NCAA tournament.

The ODAC also has the poster child Pool C selection for why RRO's are dumb when Randolph at 15-6 with 9 RRO's all from conference play was selected last year.

From watching the South Region rankings over the years the ODAC has no problem at all getting 3 sometimes four teams ranked.

sac, I totally agree with your first sentence. I don't know what the NCAA takes into consideration when doing regional rankings, so I am not about to defend them on that. Perhaps there is some sort of bias that favors the ODAC in the South region. I think a lot of the rankings that get done for D3, including to some extent even the d3hoops top 25, are influenced by the history and reputation of the program. As an example, I felt both Wash U teams this season were benefiting in the rankings because they are historically strong programs while their teams this season were not as good as some of their past teams and therefore likely not as good as teams being ranked below them throughout the season.

[bopol]

I think a lot of the rankings that get done for D3, including to some extent even the d3hoops top 25, are influenced by the history and reputation of the program. As an example, I felt both Wash U teams this season were benefiting in the rankings because they are historically strong programs while their teams this season were not as good as some of their past teams and therefore likely not as good as teams being ranked below them throughout the season.

I think Wash U's men did a lot on the floor this year to deserve the high ranking.  In nonconference play, they beat DePauw, Rose Holman and Wheaton while losing to IWU and Carthage.  Right there, a very good start.  In conference play, they went undefeated, which given the grind of the UAA as well as there being a fair number of quite good (Massey had Chicago, Emory, NYU and Case in the Top 100 and Brandeis just outside of it) is very impressive.

Going into the tournament, Washington was 12-2 against Top 100 teams and 9-2 against regional ranked.  That's a top couple of team in the country performance.  I don't see how you couldn't rank them in the Top 5 behind UWSP and with UWW, IWU and Amherst.

[USee]

I am left wondering does the NESCAC start practices at the same time as everyone else? And have they been playing a single round robin since George Washington left office? Did Carthage make the the tournament instead of Bowdoin? I wish there was one thread I could read to find all these answers.

It also seems a few do the NESCAC posters wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get them. 

[smedindy]

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but the MOST legitimate conference championship is a double round robin. Period. That's my point. I know conferences that are bloated and it's really hard to do so. But playing certain teams only on a home court or on the road hurts the balance of a conference. I've always been very consistent about this. I hate it in D-1, I hate it in D-3. Double round robins with no conference tournament is the most legitimate conference champ. That's what I meant. That's what I've always said.

And yes, they DO get to jimmy their schedule. You don't think those teams cherry pick good teams in the NE to gain SOS points? Seriously? We've all said that most teams do this to some extent, it doesn't mean that the NESCAC doesn't do it! And they have MORE chances to gain SOS points because of the single round robin. That's the ENTIRE issue. It's not false. It's TRUE!

They have played the same conference schedule before getting to the NCAA's. I know that, sure. I also know that you get to pick and choose your non-conference schedule, and if you want to gain SOS points you can be very selective. And just because they've played the same conference schedule for years doesn't make it right or fair, especially if you get to avoid good teams on the road.

Plus, if you looked at the NESCAC early in Massey, you may have seen it before teams got all connected. Also, a conference is depth and breadth, not just the top teams. The bottom counts just as much as the top.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You might want to listen to my interview with Dave Hixon regarding the topic of scheduling... I conducted it a few weeks ago...

[smedindy]

Summarize, please. And is it full of coach-speak-ese?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Feel free to watch it...

[smedindy]

Feel free to watch it...

I can't on this computer. No sound...crappy video.