Pool C

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

Great coverage tonight on Hoopsville.

He covers the South Region Women's Pool C in his section of the 3rd hour of Hoopsville.   

I wonder who brought that up 

I don't know where this post should be but the greatest story in the south is not Guilford and the success they've had in the ODAC this year.  (ODAC struggled top to bottom with the USASouth.  Struggled meaning they lost the "season series" with the USASouth first time in a few years.)  My questions is if the ODAC gets two teams so should the USASouth.  If the ODAC gets two teams and only one from the USASouth then there needs to be that ODAC-USASouth Challenge every year like the Big Ten-ACC challenge.  Whoever came up with that idea is a smart guy 

The actual story is Greensboro and winning the conference after having several losing seasons.  I am going to ask this about the USASouth Tiebreaker.  Tell me what you think GC is the number 2 seed in the tournament because they lost to Ferrum College 5th seed but because AU lost to the 7th seed they win the tiebreaker.  That to me makes no sense.  (The way the USASouth has it set up is records against seeds in order in which they finished.)  I say if you lose and give the only conference win to the worst team in conference you should be penalized. That's not how it works.

[Pat Coleman]

Conferences go either way on this. I have seen both as a tiebreaker. There is sound logical reasoning for both. There is no one absolute "how it works" on that.

[Ralph Turner]

Great coverage tonight on Hoopsville.

He covers the South Region Women's Pool C in his section of the 3rd hour of Hoopsville.   

I wonder who brought that up 
...

I was pleased to hear that question as well.  (I didn't bring it up, but was pleased to hear other South Region interest.)  We have had fun in the ASC this year and the tourney will be a blast!  HPU should bring out plenty of fans locally. 

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

Great coverage tonight on Hoopsville.

He covers the South Region Women's Pool C in his section of the 3rd hour of Hoopsville.   

I wonder who brought that up 
...

I was pleased to hear that question as well.  (I didn't bring it up, but was pleased to hear other South Region interest.)  We have had fun in the ASC this year and the tourney will be a blast!  HPU should bring out plenty of fans locally. 

Oh it was me.

Pat-
Yeah I understand both ways.  For a conference that hasn't competed nationally in quite sometime losing to the worst team in the conference should penalize you.  It needs to be switched up.  When it means an automatic semi-final spot. To me it just doesn't seem fair.  I would be happier with a a coin flip 

I am bringing the south interest Ralph.  I think the show is great.  Wish more bagpipes were playing in show breaks though.  The defending national champions are out of the south.  Regional reports help me understand the other regions.  I am sure it will help others for the south as well.  Give me a call in a few years if you ever want to do a radio show on women's basketball.  I would be happy to help.  Title IX doesn't extend to radio shows does it. (I am just joking)

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Give me a call in a few years if you ever want to do a radio show on women's basketball.  I would be happy to help.  Title IX doesn't extend to radio shows does it. (I am just joking)

We certainly do our best each week. To be honest... a VAST majority of questions I get on AIM and email are regarding the guys.

However... each week I wish we could cover women more. Though the show might have to get longer to cover EVERYTHING !!!

[sac]

Top down tie-breakers are designed to reward teams for beating the highest possible placed team.

In the MIAA Calvin and Tri-State finished tied for second with a split head-to-head, Calvin got the #2 seed because the beat #1 seed Hope once, while Tri-State did not.   Calvin gets rewarded for beating the #1 seed.

Had Tri-State beaten Hope they would have ended up #2 seed because the tie-breaker would have gone down the the games vs #4 Adrain, TSU won both, Calvin split.


Most seasons it works fine, I think Greensboro's case is fairly rare case, usually tie-breakers are settled much earlier.

You can do it top to down or bottom to top but your going to upset someone for "ignoring" a bad loss or "ignoring" a good win.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

Dave-

I am not trying to take anything away from the show.  I understand that is what is expected in terms of volume there will be more interest on guy side in terms of e-mail and AIM. Its a good show the way it is.  It is great for teams/players at the d3 level to get some recognition, where they normally wouldn't. It would be good for the girls, but I understand its about the "lowest" on the ladder of all basketball from D1 to D3.

Sac-
I understand the rare case is with greensboro, but with teams having the first round bye and having such a dominance over winning the conference tournament its tough.  Is there an agreement that Averett will get in as a Pool C no matter what they do in conference tournament.  If so than AU lose one for me.

Tie-breakers aren't perfect but I think NFL has a really good tiebreaking system.

[Pat Coleman]

Here's an exercise I meant to take care of a few days ago.

As a reminder, here were the 18 Pool C teams selected last year. A good number of conference upsets. This is the QOWI, regional record and ranking in the final regional poll we got to see, a week before Selection Sunday.

However, there is no provision in the rules that says the committee can't take an unranked team from a region once it has selected all the ranked teams. In fact, the committee tells us they rank extra teams beyond their 5-6-8-10 going into the selection call in case they are needed. In the one year since expansion they didn't need any of those teams, most likely, though again, we did not get to see the final ranking.

Tufts    11.000    20-5 No. 3 NE
Gordon    10.560    22-3 No. 4 NE
Augustana    10.478    19-4 No. 2 MW
Cortland State    10.440    22-3 No. 2 E
York (Pa.)    10.400    22-3 No. 1 MA
Trinity (Texas)    10.316    16-3 No. 2 S
Carroll    10.087    19-4 No. 4 MW
Wooster    10.042    21-3 No. 1 GL
Carleton    10.000    18-5 No. 3 NE
Baruch    9.958    21-3 No. 1 NE
Illinois Wesleyan    9.952    15-6 No. 5 MW
Widener    9.920    20-5 No. 4 MA
UW-La Crosse    9.880    18-7 No. 6 W
UW-Stout    9.870    18-5 No. 1 W
Randolph-Macon    9.840    19-6 No. 4 S
Occidental    9.750    12-4 No. 4 W
Calvin    9.733    13-2 No. 2 GL
Utica    9.692    20-6 No. 4 E

[sac]

Any timeframe for a qowi update?  thanks

[Pat Coleman]

Any timeframe for a qowi update?  thanks

We seem to keep having trouble with the changeover to D3Scoreboard and they are working on it. I don't trust the numbers after a recent tweak to eliminate another problem and they are trying to audit them.

[Pat Coleman]

OK, these passed a great deal of scrutiny tonight. Through Sunday's games:

Rank   Points   Team
1   11.818   UW-Stevens Point
2   11.750   Amherst
3   11.050   Trinity (Conn.)
4   10.810   Worcester Polytech
5   10.750   Salem State
6   10.739   Chicago
7   10.708   Rhode Island College
8   10.667   Mississippi College
9   10.667   Occidental
10   10.640   St. Thomas
11   10.600   Lake Erie
12   10.583   Brockport State
13   10.476   Washington U.
14   10.474   Messiah
15   10.429   DePauw
16   10.375   Virginia Wesleyan
17   10.364   Ramapo
18   10.364   UW-Oshkosh
19   10.318   St. John's
20   10.318   John Carroll
21   10.316   Wooster
22   10.304   Aurora
23   10.292   St. Lawrence
24   10.273   Keene State
25   10.250   Augustana
26   10.208   St. John Fisher
27   10.182   Johns Hopkins
28   10.143   Lincoln
29   10.130   Rochester
30   10.120   Stevens
31   10.100   Ohio Northern
32   10.042   Brandeis
33   10.000   Guilford
34   10.000   Catholic
35   9.960   Mary Hardin-Baylor
36   9.958   Bates
37   9.957   Hood
38   9.950   Wittenberg
39   9.944   Centre
40   9.905   Loras
41   9.875   Manhattanville
42   9.870   New York University
43   9.870   Scranton
44   9.864   Whitworth
45   9.864   Maryville (Tenn.)
46   9.857   UW-La Crosse
47   9.765   Hope
48   9.762   Hamilton
49   9.739   New Jersey City
50   9.682   Alvernia
51   9.650   Elmhurst
52   9.636   McMurry
53   9.625   King's
54   9.609   Husson
55   9.600   Averett
56   9.600   Carthage
57   9.591   Grinnell
58   9.529   Lewis and Clark
59   9.500   Rowan
60   9.500   Capital
61   9.500   Richard Stockton
62   9.480   Tufts
63   9.458   Bridgewater State
64   9.458   Babson
65   9.450   Baldwin-Wallace
66   9.440   Western New England
67   9.435   Utica
68   9.400   Redlands
69   9.368   Wheaton (Ill.)
70   9.364   FDU-Florham
71   9.318   DeSales
72   9.316   Westminster (Pa.)
73   9.280   York (Pa.)
74   9.263   Cal Lutheran
75   9.261   Otterbein
76   9.250   Plattsburgh State
77   9.238   Bluffton
78   9.200   UW-Whitewater
79   9.190   Villa Julie
80   9.190   Colby
81   9.176   North Central
82   9.174   Penn State-Behrend
83   9.136   SUNY-Farmingdale
84   9.125   William Paterson
85   9.083   Transylvania
86   9.053   Millsaps
87   9.050   Puget Sound
88   9.000   Greensboro
89   9.000   Coe
90   9.000   Carroll
91   9.000   Pomona-Pitzer
92   9.000   SUNY-Old Westbury
93   9.000   Susquehanna
94   8.957   Geneseo State
95   8.955   Ursinus
96   8.917   Bethel
97   8.909   Gordon
98   8.875   Lasell
99   8.870   Rutgers-Newark
100   8.833   Elms
101   8.810   Simpson
102   8.783   Williams
103   8.760   Middlebury
104   8.727   Vassar
105   8.708   Franklin
106   8.700   Buena Vista
107   8.682   Edgewood
108   8.682   Oswego State
109   8.680   Clarkson
110   8.667   Defiance
111   8.667   Endicott
112   8.652   Texas-Dallas
113   8.619   Baptist Bible
114   8.619   Juniata
115   8.619   Ohio Wesleyan
116   8.619   Carnegie Mellon
117   8.591   SUNYIT
118   8.588   Calvin
119   8.560   Dominican
120   8.545   Emerson
121   8.545   Mary Washington
122   8.542   St. Joseph's (L.I.)
123   8.542   Bowdoin
124   8.524   Ithaca
125   8.524   Hanover
126   8.524   Manchester
127   8.522   Rochester Tech
128   8.500   Haverford
129   8.500   Mt. St. Joseph
130   8.455   Lake Forest
131   8.450   UW-Platteville
132   8.435   Heidelberg
133   8.429   Webster
134   8.429   Ripon
135   8.400   Bethany
136   8.364   York (N.Y.)
137   8.353   St. Joseph's (Maine)
138   8.348   Mass-Dartmouth
139   8.333   St. Mary's (Md.)
140   8.320   Springfield
141   8.318   Westfield State
142   8.286   Trinity (Texas)
143   8.267   Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
144   8.238   Lawrence
145   8.227   LeTourneau
146   8.227   Kings Point
147   8.200   MacMurray
148   8.188   Tri-State
149   8.182   Wilkes
150   8.174   Rivier
151   8.167   Hendrix
152   8.143   Eastern Connecticut
153   8.143   Lycoming
154   8.130   Western Connecticut
155   8.125   MIT
156   8.118   Chapman
157   8.105   Marymount
158   8.087   Wisconsin Lutheran
159   8.083   Wilmington
160   8.045   Lakeland
161   8.043   Roger Williams
162   8.000   Yeshiva
163   8.000   Carleton
164   8.000   Muskingum
165   7.960   Hardin-Simmons
166   7.944   Albion
167   7.917   RPI
168   7.913   North Park
169   7.909   Gwynedd-Mercy
170   7.889   Pacific
171   7.875   Gustavus Adolphus
172   7.870   Lebanon Valley
173   7.857   Union
174   7.842   Illinois Wesleyan
175   7.833   Oglethorpe
176   7.818   Chestnut Hill
177   7.800   Roanoke
178   7.800   Oneonta State
179   7.792   Wentworth Tech
180   7.792   Curry
181   7.773   Gettysburg
182   7.773   Kean
183   7.773   Alfred
184   7.762   Buffalo State
185   7.762   New Jersey
186   7.750   LaGrange
187   7.750   Nichols
188   7.750   Montclair State
189   7.739   Widener
190   7.708   Hobart
191   7.682   Norwich
192   7.652   Nazareth
193   7.636   Clark
194   7.600   Pitt-Bradford
195   7.591   Castleton State
196   7.591   Albright
197   7.591   Mount Union
198   7.588   Fontbonne
199   7.571   Southwestern
200   7.550   Eureka

[golden_dome]

Looking over the recent QOWI numbers, from the South I think Guilford and Mary Hardin-Baylor are strong Pool C teams and should get bids even if they do not win their conference tournaments. Centre could also be placed in that group.

Mississippi College, DePauw and Virginia Wesleyan are in no matter what happens in south tournaments. If UMHB were to reach the championship game of the ASC tourney and lose to MC they could have a QOWI of 10.0 accumulating 280 points in their 28 games. Last year that would have put them right in the middle of the Pool C teams that were selected making them a good bet to get in.

Here is the list of teams Pat posted earlier.

2006 Pool C Teams
Tufts    11.000    20-5 No. 3 NE
Gordon    10.560    22-3 No. 4 NE
Augustana    10.478    19-4 No. 2 MW
Cortland State    10.440    22-3 No. 2 E
York (Pa.)    10.400    22-3 No. 1 MA
Trinity (Texas)    10.316    16-3 No. 2 S
Carroll    10.087    19-4 No. 4 MW
Wooster    10.042    21-3 No. 1 GL
Carleton    10.000    18-5 No. 3 NE
Baruch    9.958    21-3 No. 1 NE
Illinois Wesleyan    9.952    15-6 No. 5 MW
Widener    9.920    20-5 No. 4 MA
UW-La Crosse    9.880    18-7 No. 6 W
UW-Stout    9.870    18-5 No. 1 W
Randolph-Macon    9.840    19-6 No. 4 S
Occidental    9.750    12-4 No. 4 W
Calvin    9.733    13-2 No. 2 GL
Utica    9.692    20-6 No. 4 E

If they win one game and lose in the semi's they should have a QOWI of 9.81 based on this week's numbers placing them right on the bubble.

McMurry is another team to keep an eye on for a Pool C berth. Two ASC wins and loss in the title game could get them as high as 9.96 making them a good candidate as well. I am not sure if anyone else in the south has a chance.

[Ralph Turner]

...
McMurry is another team to keep an eye on for a Pool C berth. Two ASC wins and loss in the title game could get them as high as 9.96 making them a good candidate as well. I am not sure if anyone else in the south has a chance.

Chris, as that scenario likely unfolds, McMurry will have beaten Miss College in the semis and then probably will have lost to UMHB on the other side of the bracket on Sunday.  McMurry would have a record of 2 wins (Miss Coll and UMHB) and 3 losses (Miss Coll and UMHB twice) against regionally ranked teams.

One other game might come into play.  If Trinity wins the SCAC, then might they rise into the Regional Rankings?  McMurry beat Trinity.

Of course, geographic proximity would have McMurry going to UMHB on Thursday night and the winner flying to Miss Coll on Saturday when Miss College received one of the 5 byes.

[golden_dome]

Of course, geographic proximity would have McMurry going to UMHB on Thrusday night and the winner flying to Miss Coll on Saturday when Miss College received one of the 5 byes.

Unfortunately I think that would happen, but it would be great to have three ASC teams in the NCAA tournament. There is a good chance we have two teams with QOWI's of 9.96 or higher as potential Pool C teams. Last year that would have been good enough to get in.

[systemfan86]

Here's an exercise I meant to take care of a few days ago.

As a reminder, here were the 18 Pool C teams selected last year. A good number of conference upsets. This is the QOWI, regional record and ranking in the final regional poll we got to see, a week before Selection Sunday.

However, there is no provision in the rules that says the committee can't take an unranked team from a region once it has selected all the ranked teams. In fact, the committee tells us they rank extra teams beyond their 5-6-8-10 going into the selection call in case they are needed. In the one year since expansion they didn't need any of those teams, most likely, though again, we did not get to see the final ranking.

Tufts    11.000    20-5 No. 3 NE
Gordon    10.560    22-3 No. 4 NE
Augustana    10.478    19-4 No. 2 MW
Cortland State    10.440    22-3 No. 2 E
York (Pa.)    10.400    22-3 No. 1 MA
Trinity (Texas)    10.316    16-3 No. 2 S
Carroll    10.087    19-4 No. 4 MW
Wooster    10.042    21-3 No. 1 GL
Carleton    10.000    18-5 No. 3 NE
Baruch    9.958    21-3 No. 1 NE
Illinois Wesleyan    9.952    15-6 No. 5 MW
Widener    9.920    20-5 No. 4 MA
UW-La Crosse    9.880    18-7 No. 6 W
UW-Stout    9.870    18-5 No. 1 W
Randolph-Macon    9.840    19-6 No. 4 S
Occidental    9.750    12-4 No. 4 W
Calvin    9.733    13-2 No. 2 GL
Utica    9.692    20-6 No. 4 E

Were the QOWI numbers relatively high because of the good number of conference upsets? If the top seeds in the conference tournament hold serve, where might the QOWI bottom out at? Understanding that that is just one measure...