MBB: Conference of New England

[warriorcat]

They are currently sitting at 39-29 in non-conference games, ranked 16th out of 45 conferences. They are tied 1st in the country for the biggest change in non-conference record compared to last year. How is a statistic like this not eye opening or worth considering?

It's a noteworthy statistic, but only if the competition level is meaningful. I didn't see in your response anything about how that 39-29 record was compiled.

You get some idea when you look at the NC SOS of the CCC teams ranked in Matt Snyder's regional ranking website.

[Pat Coleman]

They are currently sitting at 39-29 in non-conference games, ranked 16th out of 45 conferences. They are tied 1st in the country for the biggest change in non-conference record compared to last year. How is a statistic like this not eye opening or worth considering?

It's a noteworthy statistic, but only if the competition level is meaningful. I didn't see in your response anything about how that 39-29 record was compiled.

You get some idea when you look at the NC SOS of the CCC teams ranked in Matt Snyder's regional ranking website.

SOS numbers are often pretty high in New England.

[warriorcat]

They are currently sitting at 39-29 in non-conference games, ranked 16th out of 45 conferences. They are tied 1st in the country for the biggest change in non-conference record compared to last year. How is a statistic like this not eye opening or worth considering?

It's a noteworthy statistic, but only if the competition level is meaningful. I didn't see in your response anything about how that 39-29 record was compiled.

You get some idea when you look at the NC SOS of the CCC teams ranked in Matt Snyder's regional ranking website.

SOS numbers are often pretty high in New England.

I do not think those numbers are very high.

[deiscanton]

Endicott's SOS numbers are the only ones of any CCC team that are high enough to merit Pool C consideration.  Currently, KnightSlappy's calculations have Endicott with an SOS of .551 and an NCSOS of .590.  These numbers not only meet the Pool C basketball threshold, they are in the Pool C soccer threshold as well.

Gordon, Wentworth, and Roger Williams all have SOS numbers under .500 in both the overall and NCSOS range, while Nichols currently has an SOS of .509 with an NCSOS of .501.

As of now, Commonwealth Coast Conference looks more like it will only have the AQ going.  Endicott is going to have to win tonight vs Nichols to stay in Pool C consideration-- even then, I don't see any Endicott non-conference win that will end up as a win vs a regionally ranked opponent.  Babson is currently 9-8 overall; I will be surprised if Babson gets regionally ranked this season. 

[warriorcat]

The point I was trying to emphasize was that in spite of an OOC record over .500 the strength of their non-conference was not very good. 

[deiscanton]

Nichols won at Endicott today, 83-63.  I noticed that live stats went down early in the second half. 

As a result, it looks more likely that only the AQ from this conference will get into the NCAA tournament this year. 

[D3ball1845]

I am aware that SOS and a teams record versus regionally ranked opponents are the primary criteria when it comes time to select teams for Pool C bids. And honestly the schedule for the CCC out of conference is probably pretty comparable to last years schedule. They play a number of games against the NESCAC, NEWMAC, and LEC (most of their losses came teams from the NESCAC, but whose don't? They have the best out of conference record in the entire country). I just think it's difficult to gauge the true talent of a team at the beginning of the season based on their non-conference play. Teams connect and grow throughout the season but they're ultimately judged how they play the entire season. Sure, it makes sense but how is a conference like the CCC, who is known as one of the "weaker" conferences in New England, ever supposed to escape that image.

Maybe the in-conference games are getting closer because the competition is better, hence the better non-conference record for the CCC compared to last year. The bottom three teams in the conference (Curry, Eastern Nazarene, and Salve Regina) have a combined 8-13 record against non-conference opponents. That is three teams accounting for almost half of the non-conference losses for the entire CCC! Within the CCC, they are a dismal 6-27. Regardless of how "good" the competition is non-conference the only conclusion that can be made analyzing these three teams non-conference versus conference records is that the CCC is a stronger and more competitive conference this year. I don't care how many efficiency or rankings sites you can refer me to, that is simply a statistic that supports my statement that the CCC is just a stronger conference. Thus, you are not going to see teams with one or two loss conference records because the competition within the conference is just better.

Not that the CCC is comparable to the NESCAC, but there will be about 5 teams from that conference that make the NCAAs with 4-5 losses within their conference. On the other hand, supposedly the CCC is already being coined as a 1-bid league just because some of the stronger teams already have multiple losses within the conference. If you take a look at the top 5 teams in the CCC, not a single one of those teams has a loss to the bottom three teams within the conference. The competition at the top of the conference is just stronger and as a result there will be more variability and less dominance within the CCC. I know that I'm a supporter of RWU and the CCC overall, and thus a bit biased, but it just doesn't make sense to me that the CCC is already being told they will only have an AQ for the NCAAs this year.

[D3ball1845]

Of note, it appears that Curry College has a mid season junior transfer from Roxbury Community College. Lherief Kenku was a multiple sport athlete at RCC and apparently ranked #1 in high jump in all of Division 3 Track & Field a couple years ago. Clearly, they added an athlete to their squad which has resulted in more competitive games in their last two contests against Gordon and WIT. They forced the game against WIT tonight into OT, as Kenku clearly has already made an impact for Curry. He is averaging 18.5 ppg, 5 rpg, 2 bpg, and 4.5 topg in two games thus far.

[deiscanton]

The reason that the Commonwealth Coast Conference will usually get only one team in has nothing to do with league perception or the strength of competition within the league.  It has to do with the fact that each team in the CCC only gets 7 non-conference games to schedule, while the NESCAC schools get 14 out of conference games.  With only 7 non-conf games to schedule, a team that is scheduling for Pool C consideration cannot waste time getting victories over teams that will finish in last place in their respective leagues.  The teams that are scheduling for Pool C consideration need to get teams on the schedule that can finish at or near the top of the regional rankings and get wins against those teams to prove themselves.  Especially since the d3 men only has 21 Pool C (at large) bids nationally to give out vs d2's 40 (5 per region), d1 women's 32, or d1 men's 36.  Also, the finances are not there, (and probably will never be there) to support expansion of d3 to an 80 or 86 team field to give d3 the same or similar at large selection numbers to d2 or d1.

Otherwise, a supporter of a conference can point to conference winning pct outside the league, or the competitiveness within the league-- and those are good things to point out, BTW, but given the constraints d3 has to work with, those facts are not going to be selection criteria.

However, in a lot of d3 conferences, the knowledge that only the AQ will get into the NCAAs makes conf tournament week one of the most exciting weeks of the season.

PS-- I wish the NESCAC presidents would accept a partial double round robin for the NESCAC basketball schedule. 

Update-- Hopefully, Trinity (CT) will be regionally ranked on Feb. 21.  If so, that will help Nichols.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You are welcome to disagree with me. I often disagree with myself. LOL

However, Nichols' resume isn't that impressive and when they are struggling of late, I can't justify keeping them on my ballot. Ryan's thoughts are the same as mine. They get their PG back and don't look as good, right now.

As for the conference's non-conference slate... it might be above .500, but when you aren't playing a lot of challenging teams... it should be above .500 to some degree.

Nichols has played in non-conference play (records as of last Sunday):
- Newbury (3-11)
- Lasell (6-9)
- Wesleyan (13-3) loss
- Trinity (13-4) a win I have noted
- Becker (9-8)
- Anna Maria (4-12)
- Southern Maine (2-12)

That's 50-59 and 1-1 versus anyone of significance. Then they have losses to WNE (8-9) and UNE (8-10).

Not a lot on this resume that makes me feel comfortable with them on my ballot... and I realize the UNE game happened hours after I submitted my ballot.

[jaller]

Well, I don't know about all of the rankings and whatnot,  it is great to see a lot of action on the CCC page. I hope it keeps up thru the postseason.

[D3ball1845]

Dave, I wasn't disagreeing with you dropping Nichols from the Top 25, I was disagreeing with your reasoning behind it. Yes, they won two close games against ENC and RWU with Bruton back. They also lost two games while Bruton was out. All that this tells me is that they are clearly much worse without Bruton playing. A pretty obvious statement. However, just because they didn't blow out RWU or ENC with Bruton in the lineup, doesn't mean that the team is worse. In my opinion, it is strictly because teams within the conference are figuring out how to effectively play against Nichols. They are a team that is guard heavy, lacking size, and doesn't particularly stress the importance of defense. The most important thing to do is limit their transition opportunities and open three point attempts. It seems that Nichols is back on track after a 20 point victory over rival Endicott College, as Marcos Ecchevaria dropped a 30 piece in the win. Just as I start getting on them about their less than stellar defense, they limit CCC scoring leader Keith Brown to 16 points on 4-16 shooting. They have another tough matchup against Gordon tomorrow and it will be interesting to see what Nichols team we see.

I guess your comment saying Nichols should be blowing out teams like RWU and ENC just irked me. I am just frustrated that the CCC continues to get labeled as a weak conference. How are they ever supposed to escape this image if they can't schedule more non-conference games? I understand that you're attributing their over .500 non-conference record to less than stellar competition. However, if I chose to examine the CCC non-conference schedule from this year and compared it to last year, I don't think we'd find much difference in the competition. Thus, I don't find it difficult to conclude that the conference is just better overall and that is why there is a 20 game difference in their non-conference record compared to last year. Obviously, some will disagree with me but that is the point of this thread. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I've been following the CCC since before most of the current players were born.  The problem is not that there isn't opportunity to schedule better non-conference opponents, it's just that most teams aren't that interested in doing it.  If programs haven't reached a level where they can compete with the best teams, why play them?

Endicott scheduled last year specifically with Pool C in mind and won the games to do it.  Nichols is scheduling better as they're ready to win.  When ENC had their talented group, they were scheduling better.

The league is not going to improve with teams losing to Bowdoin and WPI every year - not until those are competitive games.  The CCC is for sure deeper than it's been in my memory, but it's not a top notch league.  The non-conference record was great this year, partly because the league is a little deeper, but also because the opponents aren't.

Yes, what you're talking about is the next step, but it's something for the future, not something that should be done already.

There are also more conferences changes to come, so things might look up, if the strongest squads end up together in a smaller league.

A league like the MAC Commonwealth might be a goal - where every team is competitive and, even with a small number of non-conference games, they play and win enough to improve the numbers.

[AllStar]

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The final week of the 2017-18 season is upon us. In a week's time, the topic will be who has punched their tickets to the NCAA tournaments and who is hoping to get selected. This week... we don't know many of the answers and some questions have yet to be considered.

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