BB: SCIAC: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[d$]

My buddy who plays for a NWC team told me about Linfield College having a knuckleballer. 

[Gray Fox]

My buddy who plays for a NWC team told me about Linfield College having a knuckleballer. 

Big Poppa would say he is over the hill.  I say he has an advantage because it is unusual.

New question:  Who is the best sunflower seed spitter in the league?

[BigPoppa]

My buddy who plays for a NWC team told me about Linfield College having a knuckleballer. 

Big Poppa would say he is over the hill.  I say he has an advantage because it is unusual.

New question:  Who is the best sunflower seed spitter in the league?

I say it is a huge disadvantage because you can run all over knuckleballers (see Tim Wakefield). They turn a lot of singles into doubles and triples.

[infielddad]

It would be extremely hard to envision a DIII pitcher who would have enough command of a knuckleball so he could be effective.  He would have to be able to throw it consistently for strikes, have it move enough to be effective, have umpires still call it a strike, and have it not be subject to that ping sound that gets hits when wood gets you an out.
I would also agree about holding runners.  You would need a catcher with a cannon, a huge cannon, and even then you would  have a track meet on the bases with balls in the dirt and coaches/runners knowing they can get huge leads and early jumps.
Nearly every effective pitcher at the DIII level throws either a slider or a change.  Having the third pitch beyond the fastball/curveball is what makes the difference between the good pitchers and upper echelon because it is rare at the DIII level to see anyone who can rely on velocity alone.

[Bob Maxwell]

I don't believe I've ever seen anyone at any level who could rely on velocity alone... eventually they hit you with just velocity.  Its velocity and location that make the velocity so effective.

[infielddad]

My post assumed the pitcher would have some element of command with the velocity.
IMO, it is still the ability to either change speed with a change up or to confuse with the slider that makes the difference.  I have been told by many that the pitcher at Chapman(Drag) is so good/dominating because of his slider.
At the DIII level, I have seen pitchers dominate with  velocity and the ability to throw strikes.  Remember, not all DIII fields have great lighting for night games.  Watched Adam Frey, in 2004, throw nothing but fastballs for 3 innings or relief and barely get touched.  He was 89-92, poor lighting at a poor field. The announcers for the other team admitted they were totally overmatched.

[d$]

the type of pitcher (knuckleballer, powerguy, etc.) doesn't dictate the type of lead or jump you can get.  Sure the ball takes longer to reach homeplate but he who's to say a 80-82 guy doesn't have quicker feet and release on his move to first or quicker delivery home then a guy who throws 90.  Oftentimes power pitchers have high leg kicks slowing their delivery home.  Holding runners is all about varying your time home, not getting into a consistent pattern that other teams can pickup, thus getting great/early jumps.  It has little to do with the type of pitcher as opposed to who is on the mound meaning:  time of delivery home, type of move, quickness of feet, overall mound presence, varying patterns.   Knuckleballer is easier to steal off of cause of flight of ball and the ability (or lack there of) of the catcher to handle the pitch on a consistent basis. 

[infielddad]

d$,
In general, I would agree with you.  Where I would have a different view is a "knuckleballer."  When you are throwing other pitches, you can vary the delivery and include a slide step.  I have never seen a knuckleballer who can vary the delivery and who can pitch with a slide step and I cannot envision how you could be effective throwing that pitch with a slide step.  So, I do believe the type of lead and ability to run/no need to worry about a slide step is dictated by a knuckleball pitcher. That front foot has to come up. Not sure why we are talking about this though.  I still don't think the knuckleball can be effective in college.

[Browneagle64]

Infield

1) You have given these poster and myself some good insight on the types of pitches guys at the D3 level usually throw.
2) Your opinions are welcomed on a board that sometimes is dead
3) IMO, like i mentioned before, i enjoy the art of pitching in general and seek to oneday, for the fun of it, throw an excellent curveball, knuckleball or change up.
Again, I grew up playing little league years ago, but never saw those pitchs. Never played H.S. baseball because I always stuck around Football and track.
However, i constantly have followed my beloved dodgers and enjoy when "This week in baseball " airs a "how to pitch demo" for all the youngbucs like me who ever want to throw one.
Please keep us updated with your inight all of you  posters out there.

[infielddad]

eagle64, if you want to really learn about pitching, watch someone like Jamie Moyer and listen to what he says.  If he throws 80mph, it is a great day.  His theory is that he can get anyone out if his change is more than 10mph less that his fastball.
To illustrate that point, our son told me this from a scout day at Trinity.  The scouts were watching a lefty who threw 85-86.  Took a few notes and then started to walk away.  As they did, he threw a change up at 68mph, with the same motion as his fastball.  Every scout came back and watched the rest of his workout.
The  ability to change speeds, while using the same motion, can get people out no matter what level of play. Our son thinks Homer Bailey moving up rapidly in the Reds organization will be a superstar because of his easy motion and 99mph velocity.  He also things the same of Eric Hurley in the Rangers organization.  Hurley is about 92mph but has a terrific change up at 78-80 and consistently for strikes.  You cannot read it.  Makes his fastball look faster and constantly gets you on your front foot. Our son has had some success with Bailey, even when the gun read 101mph...probably a tad high.  Had no success with Hurley.

[Browneagle64]

Thats exactly what mister "Game Over" used to do with my Boys in Blue. For a second i just thought that he was the only one who likes to think about setting their pitches slower than what they can really throw.
It looked crazy, yet, vicious whenever he would throw 2 fatsballs that clocked in at 108 and the would suddenly throw a sweet and slow 70 m.p.h change up. It looked so sweet when he did this to the Yankees All star line up back in 04 at dodger stadium.
Btw, the only reason why i am bringing this up is so that i can get ready for baseball season and the love for the game.

Btw, did your son play against the two pitchers you mentioned above in college or in the pro's? 

[Bob Maxwell]

And as you two have pointed out very well... no matter what the top end is that velocity someone throws, it is the change in velocity that gets batters out.

Although it is nice to have a higher top end as yes there are hitters, some entire teams and circumstances where velocity will work by its self... if you have it with location.



So we all agree!

[d$]

infielddad,
I'm not saying it can be effective in college.  I am curious to know why you think knuckleballers can't slide step.  I meant varying the delivery home as in the length of time between the moment he comes set and moment he starts his motion home (slides step).  Yes the front foot does come up off the ground as it would with any other pitcher, the difference between pitchers you can run on and pitchers you can't is the amount of time from that point to the moment the catcher receives that ball.  Don't you think coaches would want guys with less velocity (takes longer for the ball to travel to the catcher once it has been delivered) to quicken their delivery home?  Does a knuckleballer fall into this catergory or is he just an someone all to his own and he has to be slow home with absolutley no pick-off me to keep the runners honest?   The idea is to limit stolen bases by controling the parts of the game that you have control over i.e. quickness to the plate, varying looks, multiple pick moves, and quick feet.  yes passed balls and wild pitches are going to happen. 

[infielddad]

"I meant varying the delivery home as in the length of time between the moment he comes set and moment he starts his motion home (slides step)."

d$, I am not sure we are talking about the same definition of a slide step.  It is not the "start of the motion home" that is a slide step.  It is the way/the motion used to deliver the pitch.  Instead of a leg kick, the pitcher steps directly to home.  With the motion necessary to throw a knuckleball, including the arm speed or lack of it, the use of the slide step to speed the delivery of the pitch seems incongruous with the arm speed to deliver the pitch.  In other words, your legs are going faster and the arm is going slower.
Can a knuckleball pitcher hold runners?  Sure.  They are not going to throw a knuckleball to first.  IMO, they are not going to be nearly as effective as other pitchers.
Again, I don't see this discussion to be of much use as I don't envision a pitcher being successful throwing just a knuckleball in DIII baseball.

[d$]

Whether it's a slide step or a high leg kick home, what moves first....the front leg.  Exaclty the motion used to deliver the ball which is an abbreviated leg kick quickening the delivery home.  Hand speed should be the same on all pitches.  A pitcher doesn't speed up his arm speed during a slide step, he seperates a split second sooner enabling his arm to catch up with or be on time with his quicker lower half.  i agree that hey may not be that effective although I am curious to see a good one. if a kid has good arm action and hand speed he would not have to resort to a knuckleball. 
I wasn't suggesting he throws a knuckleball to first but you can lob the ball over to first and keep runners honest with quick feet and varying the amount of time you hold the ball before going home.  I think it would be a team by team basis as far as a knuckleballer's effectiveness goes.  Some better contact gap-gap teams would probably have better success and patience than a free-swinging club.  More oftentimes than not, I would agree with the lack of effectiveness but you never know.