MBB: Colonial States Athletic Conference

[WolfPAC]

WT -

You made me laugh so hard my sides hurt!

I don't know the specifics on the contract that Neumann has with the placement service for the Canadian athletes.  My guess is that they pay about 80% of sticker price.  That's significantly more than the average student at Neumann pays, where the discount rate is about 40%.  both figures are pretty much average for schools like Neumann.

Kaiser  -

Stitzel has the fever.  And he's FT.  The question is if the school will support him as fully as they would need to in order to be highly successful in a very competitive region.

C

Coach C.   

Would you agree this means the PAC is doomed because of the lack of committment & support from the schools despite the fact that they still have the balls to hire a full-time coach?

This is a disturbing trend!  Seems to me as an educator that the D3 4 year institutions are money making profit centers teaching all the credits they need to in order to comply as a college or university while maintaining just enough recruiting athletically to keep them coming in.

In doing an educational grant study.... the projected way of education in the future is going to change from 4yr institutions for those who have problems paying for college to attending 2 yr community colleges which are cheaper.   The streamlined education at the 2yr college will create degree programs teaching the skills required to do the specific job in society while cutting the fat of courses required at the D3 4 year institutions.   

As a result the trend will increase the 2 year college enrollment and the smaller D3 private schools may be decreasing in the next 5 years or so because of the affordability.  Afterall, why would one pay more for a 4 year college when the degree at the 2 yr college will provide the necessary skills to do a specific job bound by an agreement with a corporation or trade organization.  This means the athletic departments will see a different type of demographic trends migrating as well.

If the D3 schools in the PAC are just using athletics to supplement operating costs then students will look elsewhere unless the financial packages are highly attractive.  In today's world money talks. 

Why then would any of the PAC schools hire a guy full-time if it makes no sense financially?  Guess times are changing and the PAC is in its beginning of the end stage. 

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY TURN THIS TREND AROUND?    Lowering tuition costs or boosting financial aid packages?  Does this mean a polarization between the rich and the poor?

So if an athlete is good enough one will be in a D1 school and all others will be in D2 while the rest end up playing intramurals at an artifical level called D3? or end up in a 2 yr college because of money?  Sounds like the only colleges in the PAC that will survive are the ones that will have about 500 kids paying 90,000 dollars a year ! ! !

Do you agree or disagree?

[WolfPAC]

The ultimate question them becomes:

"Will the school support a full-time coach even if they hire one?"

[WolfPAC]

When a student is given a discount on tuition because one is coming in and playing a sport,  who spots this money?

Is it in the total budget of the college or does it come out of the athletic department's budget? If the student is playing a sport and then decides not to play, does one still get a discount if one does not play the sport anymore?   

Does anyone know how this works in the PAC?

[kaiser sose]

wolfPAC -
The choice between many, many of the PAC level athletes has always been do I go to a D3 College that is okay academically, take out loans and get to play a sport, or do I go to a State school that cost less and not play sports.  That really is what it has come down to in a nutshell.

As I know you are aware, Dzik changed the historically female Cabrini forever when he told the good Sisters that he could attract male and female athletes to the higher cost institution with the carrot of playing sports.  This forever changed the landscape in small colleges around the Philly area as the rest of the flock quickly followed his path.  Some followed better and quicker then the others but almost all came to the same conclusion to some degree eventually - we need sports to survive. 

I believe what you are suggesting is that the high school student athlete will begin to say that the overall experience of playing sports at the PAC schools is not worth it and will take his chips elsewhere, perhaps even to a two year college.  That is not going to happen anytime soon.  To many of the kids want to play college ball and if you think the institutional commitment at the PAC is bad take a look at the community college world around PA.  It is bad beyond description.

In terms of how the various instititutions are committed to making their sport programs competitive on a national level, I think we have to play with the current hand we've been dealt and see who can play cards the best.  Some are currently flush and some are short stacked but neither means you can not play the cards well and come out on top.  Ever take a look at what they are doing at Gwynedd?  Somone their can really play cards!

[chizwiz]

Wolf,

Please slow down with the doom and gloom.  The PAC is not as dead as you think it is.  Alvernia is a good team and so are some other schools in the PAC.  There are 3-4 full time coaches in the PAC who are very committed to winning, as well as their non-FT counterparts.  I think the talent level has an ebb and flow.

And you are way off on that whole 2-year is going to take over thing.  Nothing like this is even close to occurring.

Oh, did you see the news report that the sky is falling?

[chizwiz]

When a student is given a discount on tuition because one is coming in and playing a sport,  who spots this money?

Is it in the total budget of the college or does it come out of the athletic department's budget? If the student is playing a sport and then decides not to play, does one still get a discount if one does not play the sport anymore?   

Does anyone know how this works in the PAC?

You should know this as a fan of d3 sports, but students are not given discounts on anything if it has anything to do with their participation in athletics.

[Warren Thompson]

When a student is given a discount on tuition because one is coming in and playing a sport,  who spots this money?

Is it in the total budget of the college or does it come out of the athletic department's budget? If the student is playing a sport and then decides not to play, does one still get a discount if one does not play the sport anymore?   

Does anyone know how this works in the PAC?

You should know this as a fan of d3 sports, but students are not given discounts on anything if it has anything to do with their participation in athletics.

Well, yes, 'wiz, that's correct in the de jure sense.

[chairman]

I love the talk of discounts for playing sports. How would we differentiate between a discount for playing a sport and athletic scholarship money? Every D3 institution is required by the NCAA to do a self study to determine rates of financial aid for athletes versus non-athletes. The rule is that the discount rate for athletes should not exceed the discount rate for the student body as a whole. Eastern came in with a negative number in their last self-study. That means that  a music student or some random kid with good grades is going to pay less than an athlete. Such as it is. It would be interesting to find the results of those self studies.

From now on everyone, whenever WolfPac or C preach doom and gloom about the PAC, simply substitute the word Cabrini for the PAC and you will be able to understand the true meaning of their post. 

Anyone met Neumann's AD? Neumann's athletic growth is not accidental. They have terrible facilities, but they have a guy at the top who can lay out a plan, and I think they will continue to grow. Also, I don't think Neumann's head coach is FT. It may be his only job, but I think he is still part time.

As for the stuff about the two year schools... What?

[Coach C]

Lots of stuff to sort through here.

Wolf, I have seen lots of trend alanysis on students beginning to track to 2 year schools in greater proportion.  This has happened to a notable degree in NJ, where 4 year public schools tightened admission criteria, forcing students of moderate means to start at a 2 year school.

Most of the trend analysis, however, shows that the trend is bucked by student-athletes, as they are loathe to sue up eligibility at the 2 year level if they are admittable to a 4 year school.

There has also been some data that shows that students who intend to attend 4 year private schools are largely unlike to attend a 2 year public school unless that 2 years is nearly to totally free and there are credit transferabilty guarantees.

I think the PAC will plod along.  I don't see it ascending.  I don't see it evaporating.  I see it being an "oh yeah, forgot about the PAC" kind fo thing.

Umm Chairman, when did Neumann's AD start?

Wehn did they start adding dorms?  When did they add Lax?  When did they add hockey? 

They have been building the athletic program for years now.  They have yet to break into even the realm of local prominence.

Do you think that the loss of schools like DeSales and the addition of the Might Macs is a good trend?  I think that long term the PAC has issues. 

Yeah, I was a Cabrini guy and all, but you can go back a few years and see that I was concerned that the talent in the league had not improved as the league aged.

Don't make this a Cabrini thing.  I have been a champion of this league for a long time, but I am also very honest.  It's tiem for the PAC to look at the commitment levels of its member institutions.

[WolfPAC]

I love the talk of discounts for playing sports. How would we differentiate between a discount for playing a sport and athletic scholarship money? Every D3 institution is required by the NCAA to do a self study to determine rates of financial aid for athletes versus non-athletes. The rule is that the discount rate for athletes should not exceed the discount rate for the student body as a whole. Eastern came in with a negative number in their last self-study. That means that  a music student or some random kid with good grades is going to pay less than an athlete. Such as it is. It would be interesting to find the results of those self studies.

From now on everyone, whenever WolfPac or C preach doom and gloom about the PAC, simply substitute the word Cabrini for the PAC and you will be able to understand the true meaning of their post. 

Anyone met Neumann's AD? Neumann's athletic growth is not accidental. They have terrible facilities, but they have a guy at the top who can lay out a plan, and I think they will continue to grow. Also, I don't think Neumann's head coach is FT. It may be his only job, but I think he is still part time.

As for the stuff about the two year schools... What?

Trust me, the PAC is in a holding pattern.    By the way... don't assume this is a Cabrini thing.   I attended Neuman as well and was involved with Rosemont athletics so speak for yourself please. I also played soccer & ice hockey for 3 years at a local college that is in the PAC now. Things are much different now.


The talent in the PAC is down.  Neumann is going nowhere anytime soon but I applaud their constant growth strategies.  At least they are trying in the world of institutional neglect.    If this was about Cabrini I would not be repeating how successful their lax team has been in the conference and they have a female track star beating D1 runners which is helping the PAC.

Infact, Cabrini has won the president cup so many times for the PAC so be objective please even though their men's basketball program is now a joke!
Cabrini was and is an asset to the PAC so don' t assume this is about Cabrini.  I myself may not contribute to the institution but this is not about Cabrini so please try to see more objectively.

[WolfPAC]

Sorry, chairman, forgot to mention also that since Cabrini lost Dzik and the mens basketball tanked, I do not see much about Cabrini in terms of free publicity in the local newspapers.

I don't really see the word PAC in anything anymore! !   Perhaps the rest of the world doesn't really care about the PAC unless they are involved in athletics in the PAC or their son/daughter plays sports, or they work for the institution in some capacity.

It is also getting difficult to watch sports at the D3 level within the PaC after seeing William Patterson, Wooster, & attending games at the Palestra.   There are so many better alternatives that the PAC right now.

Maybe chairman you understand now...... its not about Cabrini  ! ! ! !

I could care less about Whether or not Cabrini wins or loses but it only hurts the PAC when a great program goes south.   I respectfully disagree with you.... the PAC needs to get its act together now before it turns into glorified intramurals.

[WolfPAC]

When a student is given a discount on tuition because one is coming in and playing a sport,  who spots this money?

Is it in the total budget of the college or does it come out of the athletic department's budget? If the student is playing a sport and then decides not to play, does one still get a discount if one does not play the sport anymore?   

Does anyone know how this works in the PAC?

You should know this as a fan of d3 sports, but students are not given discounts on anything if it has anything to do with their participation in athletics.

I am refferring to the discount rate used to calculate percentage of tuition.  It happens all the time.    For example,  an athlete my get an academic scholarship for 3000 dollars and if tuition is 10,000 that would be a 30% discount rate compared to a non-athletic person getting a 5000 dollar grant or endowment which translates to 50%.  I agree, it is tougher on the athlete though.

[WolfPAC]

I love the talk of discounts for playing sports. How would we differentiate between a discount for playing a sport and athletic scholarship money? Every D3 institution is required by the NCAA to do a self study to determine rates of financial aid for athletes versus non-athletes. The rule is that the discount rate for athletes should not exceed the discount rate for the student body as a whole. Eastern came in with a negative number in their last self-study. That means that  a music student or some random kid with good grades is going to pay less than an athlete. Such as it is. It would be interesting to find the results of those self studies.

From now on everyone, whenever WolfPac or C preach doom and gloom about the PAC, simply substitute the word Cabrini for the PAC and you will be able to understand the true meaning of their post. 

Anyone met Neumann's AD? Neumann's athletic growth is not accidental. They have terrible facilities, but they have a guy at the top who can lay out a plan, and I think they will continue to grow. Also, I don't think Neumann's head coach is FT. It may be his only job, but I think he is still part time.

As for the stuff about the two year schools... What?

When will they get a real gym?  Its tough watching NCAA playoff games on tiny TVs in their lobby for the last 10 years.  I actually snuck in through the kitchen every playoff game for free anyway when the tiny little gym was beyond capacity.  Is this any way to treat a D3 team?   

[kaiser sose]

Folks, if I have understood the last several pages of postings correctly, it appears that just about all of you are singing about the current poor state of PAC Basketball in comparison to the other Mid-Atlantic  Conferences.  This sad song's chorus contains the repeated "Lack of Institutional Commitment" and the verses touch upon the full-time vs part-time status of the coach, the facilities, and finally a rousing "Men's hoops are not a priority at these schools".

I think you are all missing the boat about what it takes to have, and sustain, a competitive basketball program at the D3 level.  And what is it, you ask? Okay, here goes – What you need is a combination of a smart AD and Coaches who get "it" in terms of knowing what it takes to build a basketball program.   That's it! Not that hard and not that complicated.  I'll even give you a clue to determining if these factors are in place at your favorite PAC school.  Turn your record over, look at the flip side, and examine the Women's Basketball program at your school

See in the history of the PAC I believe only three current programs have won the Men's Championship and they are, of course Cabrini, Alvernia, and Gwynedd. Hey,  guess  what? Surprise, surprise only three teams have won the Women's Championship and they are again Cabrini, Alvernia and Gwynedd!  You build the teams the same way and if you know how to do it for one then you get for the other. 

Let's take a look at Cabrini. Once they had the epitome of an AD/ Coach in Dzik who got "it" and he also had in place a great Women's coach (who was part-time) who got "it" and they won like crazy.  Dzik moves out of AD job and eventually leaves as coach, they put in a new AD – hire the wrong coaches for both programs - and now they are floundering.  And guess what, they have TEN TIMES the facilities they ever had before! They won before because they had smart, hardcore basketball people who knew what the hell they were doing! And if they were all still there in exactly the same roles they would be winning still.

Take a look at the Alvernia and Gwynedd women's program. They win regionally and in some years even compete on the national level.  Why? How? Because even though the Women's Coach at Alvernia is part-time, he just happens to be very good! He also has the support of an AD who gets basketball!  They same situation is true at Gwynedd where they win in an almost unprecedented fashion on the women's side because their Coach/AD really, really gets "it".  He even works with the part-time Men's Coach so that they win also because together – let's all say it together now - they get "it".

By my simple method of looking at the Women's team to tell me if the school's combination of AD & Coaches get "it" or not, I will now give you my prediction of how your favorite Men's team will fare over the next several years.  Alvernia and Gwynedd will be good, Missercordia will be decent and Neuman and Immaculata will get better in a hurry.  Cabrini, Arcadia, Marywood, Wesley, and Eastern will continue to flounder and will not sustain any real success consistently in their programs.

All right, tell me I am an idiot.

[WolfPAC]

Folks, if I have understood the last several pages of postings correctly, it appears that just about all of you are singing about the current poor state of PAC Basketball in comparison to the other Mid-Atlantic  Conferences.  This sad song's chorus contains the repeated "Lack of Institutional Commitment" and the verses touch upon the full-time vs part-time status of the coach, the facilities, and finally a rousing "Men's hoops are not a priority at these schools".

I think you are all missing the boat about what it takes to have, and sustain, a competitive basketball program at the D3 level.  And what is it, you ask? Okay, here goes – What you need is a combination of a smart AD and Coaches who get "it" in terms of knowing what it takes to build a basketball program.   That's it! Not that hard and not that complicated.  I'll even give you a clue to determining if these factors are in place at your favorite PAC school.  Turn your record over, look at the flip side, and examine the Women's Basketball program at your school

See in the history of the PAC I believe only three current programs have won the Men's Championship and they are, of course Cabrini, Alvernia, and Gwynedd. Hey,  guess  what? Surprise, surprise only three teams have won the Women's Championship and they are again Cabrini, Alvernia and Gwynedd!  You build the teams the same way and if you know how to do it for one then you get for the other. 

Let's take a look at Cabrini. Once they had the epitome of an AD/ Coach in Dzik who got "it" and he also had in place a great Women's coach (who was part-time) who got "it" and they won like crazy.  Dzik moves out of AD job and eventually leaves as coach, they put in a new AD – hire the wrong coaches for both programs - and now they are floundering.  And guess what, they have TEN TIMES the facilities they ever had before! They won before because they had smart, hardcore basketball people who knew what the hell they were doing! And if they were all still there in exactly the same roles they would be winning still.

Take a look at the Alvernia and Gwynedd women's program. They win regionally and in some years even compete on the national level.  Why? How? Because even though the Women's Coach at Alvernia is part-time, he just happens to be very good! He also has the support of an AD who gets basketball!  They same situation is true at Gwynedd where they win in an almost unprecedented fashion on the women's side because their Coach/AD really, really gets "it".  He even works with the part-time Men's Coach so that they win also because together – let's all say it together now - they get "it".

By my simple method of looking at the Women's team to tell me if the school's combination of AD & Coaches get "it" or not, I will now give you my prediction of how your favorite Men's team will fare over the next several years.  Alvernia and Gwynedd will be good, Missercordia will be decent and Neuman and Immaculata will get better in a hurry.  Cabrini, Arcadia, Marywood, Wesley, and Eastern will continue to flounder and will not sustain any real success consistently in their programs.

All right, tell me I am an idiot.

Hardly an idiot........ absolutely logical assessment.   I can see clearly now!

Perhaps the PAC will sustain but you are right about those other schools floundering.

Therefore in conclusion... the solution is a hardcore basketball staff that knows the game.  The rest doesn't matter and winning takes care of itself with hard work despite the institutional deficiencies.  Guess this is why Alvernia, Cabrini, & Gynn win championships.

Finding these people is the problem....why would they come to the PAC?