MBB: Colonial States Athletic Conference

[WolfPAC]

Chairman,

Your point is well-taken.  I may have been irrational because of the situation with Dzik.  The snowball effect would cost an institution.

One thing I respectfully disagree on is that there are grants and money available to the colleges for student development and mentorship.  I can give a prime example with a woman's coach at Cabrini who was part-time but is now full-time because a position for women's counseling or something on that line was created because of money being granted.

Perhaps there are loopholes.

[WolfPAC]

Sorry, I also forgot to mention the fact that there are endowment monies available as well if a board of trustees or the president allow the money to be spent on athletic human resources.

Happy holidays.

Bless everyone be safe and merry!!!!!

[chizwiz]

Wolfie and chairman,

Very good discussion there.  I still don't know how to give karma + points, but that would be my choice for both of you if I could.

I do like the idea of hiring, compensating, and promoting coaches based on their value of "mentorability", among other beneficial traits that are more available to coaches to use than other college staff personnel.  (not that others can't do similar things)

I do think that moving to d2 or naia (a dying institution) is a bad idea if the problem trying to be solved is money.  What ends up happening is a transfer of academic scholarship and grant money into athletic scholarships.  And d2 schools aren't highly regarded for their academics anyway.  Going d2 doesn't get more butts in the seats, at least not from paying butts.  So, from where does the extra money come to support the athletic scholarships and coaching compensation increases?  Again, academic scholarships and grants.  Not really a good idea, huh?

Anyway, a little off-subject, but my two cents.  Not saying it is always a bad idea to go d2.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

May we all get wins from our favorite team, unless it is playing my boys, then hopefully just in your dreams!

[chairman]

I agree that grant money is sometimes available, but PAC schools as a rule have very limited endowment monies. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would imagine that Arcadia, who is leaving, has an endowment in the middle of the range for DIII schools, but I would bet that the other schools all fall in the bottom quarter of private colleges for endowment nationally. That would make it very difficult to allocate endowment monies for something that should come out of an operating budget. On the other hand if alums earmarked money to endow a position, the school would be legally/morally bound to use that money to fund the position. There would, however, be Title IX implications that might lead the school to either not take the gift or to require that funding for a parallel position be made available. We can always hope though.

[kaiser sose]

Perhaps I am incorrect, but it appears to me taht this converstion is beginning to take the direction of using the "part-time" status of a coach as a crutch for the prformance of a team.  I do not believe that a coach being part-time is to large a hurdle for a program to overcome.  In fact, if you are near a large populated area (such as Cabrini) the part time status may in fact inlarge your potential coaching population.  Bottom line, many part-time coaches in the PAC have won championships in various sports including basketball.

[chairman]

The thread started not as a discussion of the inadequacy of the Cabrini coach per se, but rather as an examination into reasons why the PAC has struggled against national level competition on the year. The tallest of the pygmies is still a pygmy. To become a league that regularly puts teams into the top 20 in the country, the question of part-time coaches is part of an overall funding question that needs to be considered. Gwynedd-Mercy had a good two-year run with a part time coach, and they have stayed competitive in life after Gaye, but in examining the difference between challenging for a PAC title and trying to advance deep into the DIII tournament, the question of institutional commitment needs to be examined. It might be easier to get someone to agree to work part-time than it would be to pay a full-time coach $30 to $35K, but I think that a quality coach committed to full time development and on campus is going to be much more effective in all the aspects of developing his team and his players than even the most committed and qualified part time coach.
Can a part-time coach win the PAC? Absolutely. Can a part-time coach lead a team to national prominence? Possibly, but it certainly seems that if that were to happen the coach would either have to be taken care of by the institution or would have too many other opportunities to move to make staying in a part-time position for long worthwhile.  I would still be interested to see how many teams that finished in the National top 25 over the past 10 years have been led by part time coaches. I cannot imagine that more 20 of the 250 teams have had part time coaches, but that is just conjecture.

[WolfPAC]

Well Gang...Hope everyone had a nice holiday.


What would the alternative be to not having a part-time coach if a full time position is not possible?

Could it not be done by giving the Part-time coach another job description to keep he or she on campus as a mentor then?

Is this not playing the shell game which I am sure is done in order keep a coach full-time.  Why couldn't it happen.

So.. if a professor or an admissions counselor happened to be a coach then what? 

[Coach C]

Wolf -

There are lots of examples of schools where part-time coaches are full time employees in another office on campus.  Admissions is the usual place for these folks, but there are other spots too. 

Cabrini even has one of these guys (LAX).  Widener used the formula to success as they built thier budget to the all full time athletic staff they have now.

It's a good short-tem solution as long as the plan is to keep moving in the direction of a professional coaching staff.  Part-timers can't be relied on to give the measure of devotion required on a year in and year out basis to build a top program.  Eventually their jobs, (either on campus or off) or their families or a better coaching position get in the way.

As for me, the holiday wqas excellent ... yours?

C

[heatlee]

Giving the coach another position is the smart thing to do.  They can be in charge of intramurals, be the SID, or be an assistant AD.  Its not as if other schools don't do it.

[Warren Thompson]

Wolf -

There are lots of examples of schools where part-time coaches are full time employees in another office on campus.  Admissions is the usual place for these folks ....
C

Coach C:

Is it not verboten that coaches should have a say-so in admissions (potential for abuse and all that)?

[chizwiz]

Warren,

I know your question was directed at Coach C, but I'll take a stab at it.  At EU, it is not "verboten", per se.  I know the Admissions Director, and I don't think he would let unethical admissions practices happen if he knew about it.  And, he would know about it since EU is a small enough school that he makes or is part of every admittance.

I think it would be a similar situation in other schools.  I think it should be verboten that the Admissions Director also be a coach.  But, even if this standard is held, there is still much room for problems, as you probably know.

[Warren Thompson]

Warren,

I know your question was directed at Coach C, but I'll take a stab at it.  At EU, it is not "verboten", per se.  I know the Admissions Director, and I don't think he would let unethical admissions practices happen if he knew about it.  And, he would know about it since EU is a small enough school that he makes or is part of every admittance.

I think it would be a similar situation in other schools.  I think it should be verboten that the Admissions Director also be a coach.  But, even if this standard is held, there is still much room for problems, as you probably know.

OK but doesn't the NCAA also take a dim view of any coaches who have a say in admitting students (again, the potential for abuse)?

[WolfPAC]

Wolf -

There are lots of examples of schools where part-time coaches are full time employees in another office on campus.  Admissions is the usual place for these folks, but there are other spots too. 

Cabrini even has one of these guys (LAX).  Widener used the formula to success as they built thier budget to the all full time athletic staff they have now.

It's a good short-tem solution as long as the plan is to keep moving in the direction of a professional coaching staff.  Part-timers can't be relied on to give the measure of devotion required on a year in and year out basis to build a top program.  Eventually their jobs, (either on campus or off) or their families or a better coaching position get in the way.

As for me, the holiday wqas excellent ... yours?

C

Thx for asking.....my holiday was eventful. Got hit in the head with a 2x8x14 ft piece of lumber that fell on me and it hurt! Nice big gash on my temple forehead but I would not go to hospital on Xmas eve and get stitches. (building an addition on my house) Then if that was not bad enought I caught a nice cold as usual so I could not taste the great feast of food for the holidays.

  Thank God for Crown Royal!
Hoping the PAC has better fortune than I do! !

Sounds like the indisputable answer is to keep a knowledgeable coach on campus who is "with it" & devoted to his or her kids/program all the way.  The damn world is so politically correct these days though it is hard to keep anybody good unless the dollars & cents add up.    What happened to the pure love of playing ball and wanting to win at the administrative level?

Are these highly touted officials of our educational institutions so cold, or is it just dollars are the only thing that matters these days.

Cabrini's growth correlated with its athletic department if anyone else didn't notice.  The LAX is not going to get chopped next for dollars I hope.

[chairman]

A couple thoughts on on-campus jobs. Heatlee- SID/head basketball coach?That would last two weeks at most. Most SIDs sleep in their offices. I can see an arrangement for Assistant AD, as there are a number of ways Athletics Administrations work, and depending on the size of the budget it can be done. Director of admissions would be a ridiculous job pairing, but I don't think that is what you were suggesting. If the basketball coach were to work in admissions, he would have to be hands off on decision making for any prospective players. Eastern has two assistant men's soccer coaches, an assistant women's LAX coach, an assistant baseball coach, and a head men's LAX coach who work in admissions. I know that they are allowed to be involved in recruitment through their admissions roles, but that the final yea or nay comes down to the director of admissions.

I think that many places do pair director of intramurals with a coaching position. If it is done right, and since that is what we are talking about here anyways, that is also going to be a really tough job description. (Particularly in regards to recruiting and supervisory roles that would seem to occupy much of the same time frame.

Wolf PAC, sorry to hear about your head. Seems like it's just a flesh wound though. Get well soon as games start-up soon.

[WolfPAC]

A couple thoughts on on-campus jobs. Heatlee- SID/head basketball coach?That would last two weeks at most. Most SIDs sleep in their offices. I can see an arrangement for Assistant AD, as there are a number of ways Athletics Administrations work, and depending on the size of the budget it can be done. Director of admissions would be a ridiculous job pairing, but I don't think that is what you were suggesting. If the basketball coach were to work in admissions, he would have to be hands off on decision making for any prospective players. Eastern has two assistant men's soccer coaches, an assistant women's LAX coach, an assistant baseball coach, and a head men's LAX coach who work in admissions. I know that they are allowed to be involved in recruitment through their admissions roles, but that the final yea or nay comes down to the director of admissions.

I think that many places do pair director of intramurals with a coaching position. If it is done right, and since that is what we are talking about here anyways, that is also going to be a really tough job description. (Particularly in regards to recruiting and supervisory roles that would seem to occupy much of the same time frame.

Wolf PAC, sorry to hear about your head. Seems like it's just a flesh wound though. Get well soon as games start-up soon.

Thx for the get well wish....it stopped bleeding after 12 hours.  Seems to be OK at the moment.

Games will be starting or as I say the PAC officially starts.  I am sure Alvernia will be strong & Cabrini will have to reevaluate themselves if Arcadia happens to beat them.

Heard Dzik was coming up for the January 20th Cabrini vs Neuman game for alumnis.  I really do not think he will show though.  Brings back too many bad memories.

Guess the PAC will evolve into whatever kind of structure the NCAA & school administration allow it to be... just hoping the PAC doesn't become a glorified intramural program without good coaches since the area is saturated for recruiting.    Perhaps we need more marketing geared towards D3 ball as the purest form of the sport.  Especially at the high school level so players don't sit on the bence in some other division.

The student athletes are the only thing left to keep it going if all else fails. If a talented individual can carry the load of the conference.
Oh well gotta split..