MBB: Colonial States Athletic Conference

[WolfPAC]

WolfPAC--

Thanks for coming back. A couple responses to earlier posts and then I'll go away. First, in response to parking at Eastern. It is terrible, and the gym is small. I think K hit on a lot of things when he talked about young schools that are growing and need time to accumulate endowments and grow an alumni base. While the Eastern parking situation will never be great. There just is not available land. If you look at the cost per square foot of land in St. Davids, you know that EU will not be able to purchase land in any sizable quantity (Unless Cabrini goes up for sale ). the second problem is that the local governing bodies need to grant permission for the school to pull a weed, much less fell a tree. It's easy to say from the outside to tell the local governments to pound sand, but when you have two new residence halls in various stages of planning and construction, and you hope to build a new gym/ fitness center, and a new academic building in the near future, you have to jump through hoops for the township. As close as Cabrini and Eastern are, they deal with different township groups in permitting etc.

Secondly, your call for greater media attention to PAC accomplishments etc is something that the conference needs to address. Unfortunately for EU, Cabrini, Gwynedd-Mercy, and to a lesser extent Immaculata, they are all in a market with a lot of other collegiate action happening. PAC basketball gets several column inches in Scranton, Dallas, Reading, and Dover, but those are markets with slightly more available space. There are things being done, such as the Philly COSIDA All-Academic team that allow PAC Athletes to be recognized alongside kids from Villanova, Drexel, LaSalle, as well as Ursinus, Haverford, and Swarthmore. The PAC has done a pretty good job of getting kids on those lists. I believe there is a PAC player on the upcoming MBB list, which only has 5 guys on it.

In looking at the PAC as a whole, and it's overall health as an institution, I think there are a few simple things that can be done to up the quality of the league as an overall athletic conference. The first thing, ironically, has nothing to do with men's basketball. The first thing I would do if I were the conference commissioner would be to tell the three schools that do not admit men, that they have three choices. They can A) admit men and field teams for men's and women's sports. B) Demonstrate a genuine commitment to developing winning athletic programs through the hiring of full time coaches and institution of building plans, or C) leave. Rosemont and Cedar Crest would choose C) I believe Notre Dame would choose B) in the short run and maybe develop a plan for a. This is just my opinion, but I think that a 9/12 league with 3 teams on the women's side at or near the bottom of every sport every year is not a good paradigm. Immaculata has begun to make progress in a few key sports, and the others will follow over the next four to ten years, and the conference needs that.

The second thing I would do if I were the Commish would be to institute pressure on the presidents to establish minimum facility requirements (800-1000 person capacity with locker room space for four teams, wireless internet connection and working lights, ever notice how dim it is in a lot of the PAC gyms? That's a simple change that could make a big difference. I would demand that every institution fund at least an audio stream of every home basketball game, and would highly encourage the same for games in other seasons. Unfunded mandates stink, but pressure from the conference could help to further sell building projects at EU, Neumann, Centenary, and any of the women's colleges that stick around. Immaculata's gym could be retrofitted with a second side of bleachers (They could just bring in some from their soccer lacrosse facility which has seating for 27,000 people).

Finally, I would look at each sport and identify teams that finish in the bottom three for three or more consecutive years and examine the institutional responses. Institutions that do not respond, need to be prodded to respond. Their choice to sponsor a team in a given sport needs to be questioned, and institutions should have to develop a strategic plan for addressing the issue in that sport. The situation is not that common in basketball, Cedar Crest Women have been bottom two for several years running. Eastern's Women finished bottom two the last two years, but the institutional response has already been made, and there will be a change in leadership there. Cabrini's institutional response came after really just one year, and should Marywood finish in the bottom three (maybe the right number is bottom two) again next year, they should have to present to the league a strategic plan for changing things.

I don't know of any leagues that do such a thing, but I think that there needs to be accountability in the league for running entire athletic departments, and not just sponsoring a bunch of sports so that you can run a couple to win. As the athletic departments grow this way, the league will grow and basketball (which is the linchpin) will continue to get stronger and more competitive within the region.

Glad you know what it takes!  You have grip on what is going on which is encouraging.   I can understand where you are coming from and I admit I did not realize it was as complicated to improve a facility.

Pressure from the PAC is what some of the weaker schools need in order to weed out the less than serious athletic departments who are only there for affiliation.  The problem is that the PAC must need those members as well for its survival financially and there are probably diehard fans even if they are constant losers.   

I agree with you if the facility upgrades occur it would make a school proud to have such a nice facility and then the sports will grow.  The attraction of the state of the art facility (on the PAC level) itself would get more students excited and people involved increasing the overall fan base in a natural growth environment. Sounds like the commish needs to give them all a kick in the pants.

Admitting men is a matter of athletic and academic survival... seems like Rosemont and Immac had to go coed to survive so why not have them go all the way with the athletic part which has to help them in marketing.

Just goes to show how important athletics are even at the D3 level which is why I harp on institutional neglect or laziness due to dollars and implementing athletic projects on strict budgets. Too many rules.

Thx for taking the time to describe your plans.

[njlincolnlion]

WolfPAC:

You mentioned a key in your previous post regarding colleges and universities seeking to increase male enrollments.  That was one of many key factors that led the Lincoln Trustees to bringing back football along with a marching band.

Despite two posters on this board problems with Lincoln (One even posted a negative comment regarding a Lincoln Degree, referring to it as "a Lincoln Diploma"), that I had to email him privately regarding Lincoln's legacy compared to his Alma mater (which was only founded in 1925, and gained university status in 2001.

Anyway Lincoln which was an all male school since it's founding in 1854 and went coed in the mid 1960's and like many other mens colleges that now finds the majority of it's students women.  As part of the student life enhancement project, it was felt that bringing back football, a marching band and other programs to Lincoln would start to attract more men.

As a side note Lincoln's Manuel Rivero Hall Main Gym seats 2500 and was completed in 1972.  Recent improvements to the floor, and hopefully broadcasting quality lighting in the near future will further improve the athletic facility plant. 

[MR. PAC]

I think Alvernia would be a real contender in both mac leagues.

[WolfPAC]

WolfPAC:

You mentioned a key in your previous post regarding colleges and universities seeking to increase male enrollments.  That was one of many key factors that led the Lincoln Trustees to bringing back football along with a marching band.

Despite two posters on this board problems with Lincoln (One even posted a negative comment regarding a Lincoln Degree, referring to it as "a Lincoln Diploma"), that I had to email him privately regarding Lincoln's legacy compared to his Alma mater (which was only founded in 1925, and gained university status in 2001.

Anyway Lincoln which was an all male school since it's founding in 1854 and went coed in the mid 1960's and like many other mens colleges that now finds the majority of it's students women.  As part of the student life enhancement project, it was felt that bringing back football, a marching band and other programs to Lincoln would start to attract more men.

As a side note Lincoln's Manuel Rivero Hall Main Gym seats 2500 and was completed in 1972.  Recent improvements to the floor, and hopefully broadcasting quality lighting in the near future will further improve the athletic facility plant. 

Thats all nonsense, an LU degree is just as good or even better than other degrees. I hate stereotypes and labels which is what causes problems for all people.   It comes down what the person does with their degree and how the person applies ones skills to the world job market.   Sure I wish I could have afforded or been privledged enough to get to Harvard and be a president but a Lincoln degree is something to be proud of no matter what ignorance or insensitivity may deem otherwise.

Seems like LU is a prime example of what a facility can do for athletics just by being built.  The athletic atmosphere brings character, team sports, and a sense of collegiate unity to the institution which only enhances everyones experience academically, socially, and physically.   The fact that the independent label applies to LU is irrelevant. 

Lu needs to be proud as well for reaching a "University status" and puts the region on the map better than some PAC schools.  Perhaps LU could be in the PAC.  ----Just a thought.  LU is definitely worthy of national recognition which is what the PAC needs.     

[njlincolnlion]

WolfPAC:

Thanks for your kind words and support of Lincoln.  Lincoln will be a provisional division 2 school next year and will be fully D2 in two years and members of the CIAA (Central Intercollegiate Athletic Association)conference of which Lincoln was a founding member of the conference in 1912.

[Matt Letourneau]

I don't know a thing about Lincoln academically, so I don't purport to represent anything on that front.

If you've read the CAC board, NJ, then you know what I think about the way Lincoln plays basketball, which IS entirely relevant.  I came in knowing relatively little about the program, other than the headlines on the 201 point game and the fact that you are a regular contributor to the board.  For most of the game, I was impressed with the talent level, but that gave way to disgust with the way Lincoln conducted itself at the end of the game.

Either you didn't see my posts on the CAC board, or you perhaps wisely chose not to respond, because the actions of the Lincoln players in terms of poor sportsmanship and egotistical basketball were not defensible.  I know that I ran a conference, I wouldn't want that team anywhere near it.

In any event, its now been brought to my attention that there are nine players on the Lincoln roster that did not play for Lincoln last year and are not freshman.  That's an unusually high number and really makes me wonder exactly what kind of program is being run there.   I know they are going D2 next year, but right now they are a division 3 school competing against division 3 talent.  I'm pretty sure none of the teams they're facing brought in 9 guys in one offseason.

There's no real remedy here--Lincoln qualified for the tournament fair and square.  But the more I know about the Lincoln, the more I think that the Alvernia fans and now us Catholic fans perhaps have a fairly legitimate beef about exactly what kind of team ended their season. 

Perhaps there's an explanation here--I'd love to hear it.   

[MR. PAC]

Matt, I agree that you go through a whole season and it comes to an end verses a team like Lincoln. I don't won't to come off like sour grapes but how do you prepare for a team like Lincoln. There are 25 players that played during the season some off, some on, some suspended, some elgible, some inelgible, and who is running the ship.

[Matt Letourneau]

Exactly.  And I realize its easy to dismiss what I'm saying, because my team did have its season ended by Lincoln.  And yes, I do think that Catholic could beat some teams still playing.

But honestly, I just never knew what the deal was with Lincoln until we played them, so I couldn't comment.  Now I can, and I'm kind of horrified.  Its a real shame that they ended anybody's season.

[chizwiz]

Well, thankfully, Lincoln won't be ending any d3 seasons after this year.  Yes, they are not a team of class (201 points) and seem to be mercenaries with the amount of players they bring in who stay for a year and go.

Again, d2 is academically weak.  Lincoln fits well in it.  And the PAC would not allow Lincoln in.  It would be worse academically than Neumann.

[cold_case]

I was impressed with the talent level, but that gave way to disgust with the way Lincoln conducted itself at the end of the game.
In any event, its now been brought to my attention that there are nine players on the Lincoln roster that did not play for Lincoln last year and are not freshman.  That's an unusually high number and really makes me wonder exactly what kind of program is being run there. I'm pretty sure none of the teams they're facing brought in 9 guys in one offseason.

How did Lincoln conduct itself after the Catholic game?
Who is the person or website that brought to your attention about the nine new players Lincoln has on its roster and why didn't they have the onions to post it?
Some of us up here in the Northeast part of PA think you're going to be a blast on the Landmark board with your whining. There are also some that wonder if you're related to ColonelJohn.
Anyway, we'd like to hear the answers to the above questions.

[njlincolnlion]

chizwiz:

You are the person that I personally emailed to take you tothe task regarding Lincoln's academic reputation.  Have you ever taken a course at Lincoln to have an opinion regarding the quality of a Lincoln degree?  This is from some who's scjool Eastern was founded in 1925, and acheived university status in 2001.

Lincoln founded in 1854 that counts Thurgood Marshall, Langston Hughes, Kwame Nkrumah, Monte Irvin, Cab Calloway as alumni would measure up aganist any alums from Eastern University.

As I mentioned in my personal post to you, I may have to question my pastor's recent doctorate from Eastern Theological/Palmer since he teaches us every week to "judge not, lest we be judged also".

Your negative opinons regarding Lincoln (i.e. d2 academically) seems to consume you, but I will continue to pray for you and count you as a friend in much the same manner that Jesus' teaches us.

[chizwiz]

I was impressed with the talent level, but that gave way to disgust with the way Lincoln conducted itself at the end of the game.
In any event, its now been brought to my attention that there are nine players on the Lincoln roster that did not play for Lincoln last year and are not freshman.  That's an unusually high number and really makes me wonder exactly what kind of program is being run there. I'm pretty sure none of the teams they're facing brought in 9 guys in one offseason.

How did Lincoln conduct itself after the Catholic game?
Who is the person or website that brought to your attention about the nine new players Lincoln has on its roster and why didn't they have the onions to post it?
Some of us up here in the Northeast part of PA think you're going to be a blast on the Landmark board with your whining. There are also some that wonder if you're related to ColonelJohn.
Anyway, we'd like to hear the answers to the above questions.

coldcase,
Yes, Letourneau is whining a bit too much and it sounds like some making of excuses for a loss.  However, his points about Lincoln "Diploma Also Doubles As Toilet Paper" University are valid.  They are known as mercenaries, thugs, and some have even called it the All-Prison Crew (not my words).  I tend to think they are coached by a guy who doesn't know the game well but picks up great (and I mean athletic) basketball players . . . and lots of them.  How they get them in there and what kind of monies are offered are not known.  We do know that it only takes a beating heart (usually) and a desire to attend class (sometimes) to get admitted into Lincoln College, ahem, University.  Excuse me.

By the way, why is it that people seem to think that once a college becomes a university that it is such a big deal?  I guess Boston College isn't that great of a school compared to LU.  I wonder what Swarthmore and Haverford feel like when njlincoln infers that a university educates better.

[chizwiz]

chizwiz:

You are the person that I personally emailed to take you tothe task regarding Lincoln's academic reputation.  Have you ever taken a course at Lincoln to have an opinion regarding the quality of a Lincoln degree?  This is from some who's scjool Eastern was founded in 1925, and acheived university status in 2001.

Lincoln founded in 1854 that counts Thurgood Marshall, Langston Hughes, Kwame Nkrumah, Monte Irvin, Cab Calloway as alumni would measure up aganist any alums from Eastern University.

As I mentioned in my personal post to you, I may have to question my pastor's recent doctorate from Eastern Theological/Palmer since he teaches us every week to "judge not, lest we be judged also".

Your negative opinons regarding Lincoln (i.e. d2 academically) seems to consume you, but I will continue to pray for you and count you as a friend in much the same manner that Jesus' teaches us.

Do you mean this e-mail?:  "I was quite dissappointed with your character assasination of Lincoln University referring to it's degree as a "Lincoln Diploma".  I have a Lincoln University Degree and I am quite successful and proud of my alma mater.

I may have to question my pastor's doctorate he received from Eastern Theological, now Palmer Seminary in 2002, about whether Eastern University with it's Baptist roots continue to teach the doctrine "Love the neighbor as thyself".

In the event you haven't visited Lincoln's website, the university has a long (founded 1854) and proud history.  A former Supreme Court Justice, world renowed poets, athletes (Monte Irvin), entertainers and world leaders are counted among the alumni.

I would put Lincoln legacy up aganist Eastern's and other schools regardless of NCAA division status anyday.

May God continue to bless you my friend."

[NEPAFAN]

I was impressed with the talent level, but that gave way to disgust with the way Lincoln conducted itself at the end of the game.
In any event, its now been brought to my attention that there are nine players on the Lincoln roster that did not play for Lincoln last year and are not freshman.  That's an unusually high number and really makes me wonder exactly what kind of program is being run there. I'm pretty sure none of the teams they're facing brought in 9 guys in one offseason.

How did Lincoln conduct itself after the Catholic game?
Who is the person or website that brought to your attention about the nine new players Lincoln has on its roster and why didn't they have the onions to post it?
Some of us up here in the Northeast part of PA think you're going to be a blast on the Landmark board with your whining. There are also some that wonder if you're related to ColonelJohn.
Anyway, we'd like to hear the answers to the above questions.

coldcase,
Yes, Letourneau is whining a bit too much and it sounds like some making of excuses for a loss.  However, his points about Lincoln "Diploma Also Doubles As Toilet Paper" University are valid.  They are known as mercenaries, thugs, and some have even called it the All-Prison Crew (not my words).  I tend to think they are coached by a guy who doesn't know the game well but picks up great (and I mean athletic) basketball players . . . and lots of them.  How they get them in there and what kind of monies are offered are not known.  We do know that it only takes a beating heart (usually) and a desire to attend class (sometimes) to get admitted into Lincoln College, ahem, University.  Excuse me.

By the way, why is it that people seem to think that once a college becomes a university that it is such a big deal?  I guess Boston College isn't that great of a school compared to LU.  I wonder what Swarthmore and Haverford feel like when njlincoln infers that a university educates better.

I would love to know the circumstances around that.

[njlincolnlion]

Matt:

I posted previously that after listening to the final two minutes of the game I was annoyed with Garrick Wooten's senseless flagrant foul.  I believe I said that judgement errors like that would cost the Lions in close games.  I also agree that Blanton's missed dunk wasn't necessary.

I know that Lincoln has been under a microscope since the OSU-Marion, and some people will use every excuse to put down the program, from calling the players thugs, to questioning the legacy of an entire institution based on one basketball game.  The administration and coach suspended six players (some starters and key players) mid December for violation of team rules, and the squad still beat a ranked North Central in Orlando.  A freshman and key player, JaJuan Robinson was declared academically ineligable for the second semester and will not play until he meets the university's academic standards.

I have followed Lincoln's Basketball team closely for the last six years, and they were horrible.  I went to games at Montclair state and other d3 schools in my area, and the Lions were basically "fodder" to pad other teams records.  Three years ago, an effort was made to put a good product on the floor, and now other d3 teams don't want to schedule the Lions.  If you look at Lincoln schedule many of the teams were d2 and NAIA schools.  The NJAC was the only conference that scheduled a significant number of games with Lincoln.  Life as an independent is bad, and you take games as they come.