MBB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[jdean]

The football guys keep winning and the basketball guys don't. Mount lost to OH Wesl by about a half dozen with Karpinski getting about 1/2 Mount's points. "Rebuilding" Mount B-ball is kind of like rebuilding the Indians or the current version of the Browns--its ongoing and never totally successful.

[baselinejam]

John Carroll came to town and I finally got to see them last night against Washington and Lee. I couldn't have been more disappointed. I had heard they played dirtyand didn't think much of it. Then I saw their game and it is a sad example of hoops - push, shove, reach, grab, bump. It was ugly. Topped off by a classless coach. He lectured the refs for a full 3 minutes at the end of the 1st half; ran up the score and had his players popping 3's with 2 minutes to go and they're up 30. The ref's were so intimidated it was a joke. They must have called 30 fouls on W&L and only 20 on JC. They could've whistled JC every posssesion that W&L had. The Jesuits should be ashamed of that type of team. I'm not saying W&L would have won. This just represetative of a basketball game. It was some sort of scrum.

[Toph]

baseline-
Every year people complain about Carroll's style of play.  To call Carroll's physical play a "sad example of hoops" is ridiculous.  Most of the OAC plays a similar style to Carroll defensively.  I can guarantee one thing, weren't intimidated by "classless" Mike Moran.  Why, exactly, would they be intimidated?  What could Moran possibly do to them?  You were right, they did call more fouls on W&L (33-22, one being a technical on W&L), but those are the breaks.  I also noticed that every single player on the Carroll roster got playing time.  If W&L can't stop third stringers, how is that any fault of JCU's coaching staff or players?  They also couldn't have popped as many threes near the end of the game as you suggest, because they only attempted nine all game.  The bottom line is this:  It is no surprise that a nationally ranked team defeated a winless team (who turned the ball over 31 times) by 30.  If you think the Jesuits should be ashamed of Carroll's style of basketball, talk to former University President Edward Glynn, S.J., who attended every home game. 

[ur2004]

baselinejam, I wouldn't worry about Carroll's style of play if I were you...they learned a lesson about physical play today - Rochester took them to school, killed them on the boards and flat-out dominated them. 

I noticed two technicals in a row on Carroll too, when they were down 35 or so.  And they got pounded by Rochester's bench players too....  basically all the stuff you were complaining about with W&L, Carroll got to experience it too.  So maybe that'll calm them down.

[Toph]

The final was 91-61 for those keeping score at home.  It's surprising to see JCU lose by as many as they did, but I expected them to drop one over the weekend.  Congrats to Rochester, it seems (from the box score, since I wasn't there) that they played an excellent game.

[baselinejam]

Forgot to mention the full court press when you're up 30 with 3 to go. Sorry but in my book that's classless. I've coached plenty of CYO & AAU hoops and I knew when to call the dogs off.  Multiple fouls could have been called on JCU on every WandL posession. I've seen enough college hoops over the past 33 years to know a hose job when I see one. If that's the OAC's style then my I feel sorry for you - when do you ever get a chance to see real hoops?

The only thing I respect about JC was their energy level. Whatever he's doing to stoke those kids is impressive.

I saw the UR -JCU game and the outcome was very predictable. UR was more mature and talented and JCU's only hope was to even rev up their frantic style a little more. Obviously it didn't work. They got smoked by a real program and JCU's gimick style was useless.

[ScotsFan]

I saw the UR -JCU game and the outcome was very predictable. UR was more mature and talented and JCU's only hope was to even rev up their frantic style a little more. Obviously it didn't work. They got smoked by a real program and JCU's gimick style was useless.

baseline,

I'm not a huge fan of JCU's style of play either and I can't believe I'm actually defending them.  But I will say, you can't really call it a useless gimick style.  Their record over the past few seasons speaks for itself.  You don't make it to Salem playing a gimick style.  They lost a lot of talent from last season, and its going to take some time to get the new kids to get used to the system JCU runs. 

I'm sorry your team got beat so badly, but I'm not a believer in telling kids not to play.  Toph said that 3rd stringers were in at the end of the game.  These kids don't get much action, so when they do, you expect them to just lay over?  They are putting in just as much time as the starters, so when they finally get a chance to play, I would expect them to play as hard they they can.  Is it JCU's 3rd stringers' fault that your team can't stop them?  Sorry, but I just don't agree with you on JCU being "classless" for letting their bench players play.

[woosterbooster]

I've seen JCU play once, against Wooster, and that was enough for me to form my opinion.  In my eyes, they were as dirty a team as any I'd ever seen.  Obviously, I'm not alone in my feelings.

Their game plan is simple.  To hack, hold, push, shove, and elbow so much that most refereeing crews either can't see it all or finally just look the other way in the interests of keeping the game moving.  If the refs had had any guts, they'd have called 100 fouls against JCU in the game that I saw.

I've seen other OAC teams play (BW, Mount, Ohio Northern, Capital) and none of them (with the exception of a couple of thug bodybuilders on Capital a few years ago) use those dirty tactics.  It's JCU's style, obviously with a coach that condones it, and I say it's pathetic.

[Toph]

baseline-
I hate to break it to you, but JCU is a "real program."  How's this for a resume:
Seven playoff appearances since 1996
Elite Eight in 1998 and 1999
Final Four in 2003
OAC regular season championships in 1994, 1996, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2005
OAC tournament championships in 2003 and 2004
Six 20 win seasons in 10 years
73-19 in the last three seasons, including 37-4 at home  (from jcu.edu)

What, exactly, does Carroll need to do to become a "real program?"  The only thing they haven't accomplished is winning a national title.

While Washington & Lee has a very rich history, my very quick research seems to turn up very little after around 1980.  Perhaps you can tell me of anything the program has done in the last 25 years.  

As ScotsFan (surprisingly) said, you don't have that kind of success using a "gimmick" style.  

By the way, Carroll rarely calls off the press.  As for multiple fouls that could have been called every time down the floor, I have two responses:  1.  When isn't that the case?  2.  Nothing is more irritating then blaming officials for a loss.  Referees make calls, players make plays.  Since W&L was picked to finish 10th in the leauge, I think it's safe to assume not many people believe that the Generals have the players to make those plays.  I'm sorry you have such a bitter taste in your mouth about JCU.

[Toph]

WoosterBooster-
I would've figured that you would've choked on those sour grapes by now.  Your team lost two years back, let it go.

[baselinejam]

Toph- I never said W&L would have won. The refs let JCU get away with murder. They never set the tempo. They seemed very good a blowing the whistle on W&L and virtually every call on W&L, was legitimate. They just didn't seem to inclined to do the same regarding JCU and they were most definitely the more aggressive team. In my humble opinion they out fouled W&L and the only persons closer to the court than me were in uniform - I had a great view. In a perfectly called game I think W&L would have lost by 7-10 points. I like refs that dictate early, that they will observe the rules. This got out of hand. The players played the way that the refs let them.

As far as the constant press goes - Nolan Richardson did it right at Arkansas and Bob Hurley at St. Anthony's is more like JCU (ugly and unforgiving). Like I said about 'class". Teach your atheltes a little about sportmanship. Read a little Deano.

I call'em the way I see'em. If I don't see it I can't make the call. JCU's style was thug/punkish. Not a very pleasant style to observe especially when the ref's are myoptic.

[woosterbooster]

I would've figured that you would've choked on those sour grapes by now.  Your team lost two years back, let it go.

You can call it what you will, but I'm calling it like I saw it.  And like baselinejam, I had a great seat.

Apparently JCU hasn't changed either their bullying style or on-court demeanour in two years, and Wooster fans are obviously not the only ones that are seeing that.  If the sneaker fits, wear it.

[baselinejam]

If you think the Jesuits should be ashamed of Carroll's style of basketball, talk to former University President Edward Glynn, S.J., who attended every home game. 

Happily - thanks for the lead.

A better lead would be the current president - I'll get in touch with him.

[Toph]

That would be Fr. Bob Niehoff, inducted a few months back.  He's very busy now, so it may take some time to respond.  Out of curiosity, what would you tell him?  That JCU's very successful men's basketball team is lead by a coach who is not often fond of referees, and makes it clear to them (not a secret, by any stretch of the imagination), and that the team's defensive style is too aggressive? 

On a serious note, I find it tough to believe that the #10 team in the ODAC would routinely be within 7-10 points of any top tier team in the nation.  Perhaps you can offer a little more insight into that claim.

jdean-
If and when your football season ends, just keep repeating "Only _____ more months 'til kickoff."  Remember that Mount usually plays JCU pretty tough, so 70-0 is unlikely.

[ScotsFan]

I don't know if Toph or any other JCU fans could respond, but apparantly the printed version of the JCU Basketball schedule has John Carroll misspelled on it.  I haven't seen it so I have no idea how they misspelled it.  But, not to worry, Mike Trivisonno let everyone in Northeast Ohio and Southern Canada know about the minor goof this afternoon on his radio show!