MBB: NEWMAC

[mass_d3fan]

Just got back from a long business trip yesterday, so let me try to play catch up here.  An old business friend who is an alumnus of Franklin & Marshall mailed me a copy of the DIII News to give me a dig since they put F&M 2nd in their preseason poll and had Georgio Milligan as their POY.  It also had some interesting NEWMAC news.  It was nice to see a very strong showing by the Northeast region in all the preseason analysis.

Anyway Congratulations should go out to the preseason honors garnered by the NEWMAC. 

MIT – #10 Preseason Ranking by D3 Hoops, others to watch in the Sporting News

WPI - #29 (ORV) Preseason Ranking by D3 Hoops

Noel Hollingsworth (MIT) – 1st Team Preseason All-America by D3 Hoops & Sporting News

Matt Carr (WPI) – Honorable Mention Preseason All-America by DIII News

I am not sure of any other media outlets that do any preseason awards or Top 25...anyone else ?

I had not seen much about the DIII News awards, but they obviously liked what they saw in Carr & WPI as they also picked him as the NEWMAC POY and WPI to win the conference. I am not sure I agree with all of that, but that is what the preseason is all about, laying out differing opinions on the season to come. The conference should be proud of both teams and both these talented and bright young men.

Personally, I think Hollingsworth will probably put up better numbers than Carr. Also, I think Mitchell Kates is going to have a lot of support for POY this year. (I believe it was HN last year that informed us that each team can only put up one player for the POY – Coach Anderson may have a very tough choice to make.)

I am hopeful both teams will once again be dancing in March.

My take on the conference at this point in time...

1. MIT
2. WPI
3. Springfield
4. Clark
5. Wheaton
6. Babson
7. Coast Guard

Best of Luck to ALL the players on each team.

[NEWMACJACK]

Great Posts and thanks for the updates.  WPI SID must have done a nice job selling Matt Carr to get him on that list.  He is a good player but I dont know about nationally.  I would think B. Vayda would have been put ahead of him just from the NEWMAC...Owell, I guess the only lists that matter are at the end of the season and last year WPI and MIT were the last 2 standing so it makes sense for them to have players getting recognized.  I want to support Clark U on the board this year as they get know one rooting for them on here.  Do not know a whole lot about the Cougars this year and I am excited for the season.

[Hugenerd]

Nice recognition for both MIT and WPI.  I'm personally not sold on DIII News. The year Bartolotta won D3Hoops and NABC POY and the Jostens, I think D3News had him on the third or fourth team. Seems they are using a different set of metrics up in the northwest where they publish out of (they are also in a geographically odd area to cover D3 in general).

[mass_d3fan]

NEWMACJACK

Welcome to the fun!

I do have to disagree with you however.  You have to look not only at numbers, but at the impact on both ends of floor.  Carr was the only real difference in the WPI lineup last year from the previous season. 2 years ago they did not crack the top 25 at all.  Last year they spent all but 2 weeks in the top 25 and making the top 10 for only the 2nd time ever. While Vayda is a better overall offensive threat than Carr, you have to factor in that he does not have the impact on a game on the defensive end that the WPI center does.

HN

I didn't really know that much about DIII News, but I did a little (well given the hour more than a little...LOL) web research tonight and exchanged a couple of emails with my old F&M friend tonight. He did still have last year's preseason copy around.

Actually you are wrong, they had JB as #6 in the nation in the first slot on the 2nd team. (I just did a quick net search and found this)
<http://www.smallcollegehoops.com/SmallCollegeHoops/Home_files/D3NAATeam09.pdf>
Their POY was Kent Raymond who was second to JB on the D3 Hoops list.

You can't base the validity of source off you think did or did not give JB his due.

In 06-07, Both DIII News & D3 Hoops had Josten's winner Ryan Cain of WPI as #11 in the first slot on the 3rd team.
<http://www.smallcollegehoops.com/SmallCollegeHoops/DIII%20News_files/D3NewsAATeam07.pdf>
They also gave Hollingsworth an AA Honorable Mention after the 09-10 season.
<http://www.defianceathletics.com/PDF/2009-2010/Men's%20Basketball/SmallCollegeHoops_AllAmerica.pdf>

DIII News preseason AA list has them selecting 3 from each region and then a bunch of Honorable Mentions.  Last year, they had DaQuan Brooks, James Wang & Ray Askew as the 3 from the Northeast and Hollinsworth was on their Honorable mention list with Sam Herrick, Nicholas Motta, Lance Spatling, Josh Jones and Antone Gray from the Northeast
.
They also picked Steve Djurickovic as their POY and he was a D3 Hoops All-American first teamer.  They picked MIT as the conference winner and Hollinsworth as the POY.  This year's picks for conference winners & contenders in the northeast is pretty solid as well.   

As I said, I think Hollingsworth or Kates will most likely get the NEWMAC POY, but certainly Carr will be a strong contender for it as well.

On a sad side note, what is the problem with Burke?  Lingering problems from last year, or something new?

[Hugenerd]

Regardless of your hour of research, I still am not a big fan of DIII News (based on observations over the past ~10 years).  You can look at some old discussions on the multi-regional boards, if you have spare time, for a bunch of other reasons why DIII News is not a favorite of many D3 followers.  There have been instances where they have left off players completely, who were first-teamers on NABC and D3Hoops.  Bartolotta was just the one that came to mind (2nd team is still low for his senior year in my opinion, he averaged 28 ppg among other ridiculous statistics, and led his team to its first NCAA tourney appearance and win ever).

Burke is being held out for precautionary reasons.  Without going into too many specifics, I'll just say he's in a similar situation as Sidney Crosby in the NHL. MIT has some really solid guards in their freshman class, though, so hopefully they will have more depth behind Kates this year.

[Pat Coleman]

DIII News is run by a guy whose background is in another division. Their D-II publication might be better.

[high flyer 21]

Nice recognition for both MIT and WPI.  I'm personally not sold on DIII News. The year Bartolotta won D3Hoops and NABC POY and the Jostens, I think D3News had him on the third or fourth team. Seems they are using a different set of metrics up in the northwest where they publish out of (they are also in a geographically odd area to cover D3 in general).

Kent Raymond won the DIII News POY that year.  A lot of people felt that Raymond deserved the D3Hoops POY over Bartolotta too. Not saying that they're necessarily right, but Raymond was equally as unguardable as Bartolotta was and did it constantly against the best teams in the country.  Even here in New England I heard a fan taunting that to Bartolotta when he froze down the stretch in MIT's loss to Farmingdale State in the NCAA tourament that year.

[Hugenerd]

First of all, my critique was not based on him not being named POY, it was because he wasn't even named to the first team by D3News. Secondly, Bartolotta played the last 10 games of that season on 1 ankle, suffering a pretty bad injury late in the season but played through it. Third, I wouldn't talk too much about freezing up down the stretch if I were trying to support Raymond. Raymond shot 8-19, including 4-11 in the second half of their loss to WashU that season. Lets also not forget that he turned the ball over when they were down by 1 with 2.5 minutes to play in that game, and missed two potential game-tying 3s down the stretch. Finally, you make a comment about Raymond going against the best teams in the country, which may be true, but you aren't giving Bartolotta enough credit  because: a) Raymond also had a better supporting class, which made it easier for him to get single coverage (Bartolotta was  consistently double and triple teamed his last few years), and b) Bartolotta played some really good teams in his career, including Amherst a couple times, RIC, WPI, Yale, etc, and he always brought his best in those games. I could go on and on, but I'll stop here. No need to come on this board and spark stuff based on some anecdotal comment based on what a road fan may or may not have said.

He has also done pretty well for himself in his pro career, playing one year in Italy's Serie A and starring in the Super  League the past 2 years, averaging 25 plus.

[high flyer 21]

All the points you're making are mirrored in Raymond's defense.  Raymond had a severe ankle injury as well, missing 3 starts, yet Wheaton was 21-1 WITH him as a starter.  That's right 21-1 with the only loss coming to eventual national champion Wash U deep in the NCAA tournmanent.  Yes, Raymond froze, but it obviously wasn't any worse than Bartolotta's final game in Providence.  Bartolotta could not knock down ANY shots for the last several minutes of the game when it was on the line.  Reality is is that shining on the #1 ranked team in the country with a better supporting cast against top competition is much more impressive than averaging 28 points per game against small New England colleges, regardless of coverage style.  I know you are a MIT apologist, which is completely fine, but everyone knows that Kent Raymond deserved the D3 Hoops POY that year.  And yes, Jimmy deserved to First-Team All-American on D3 News.  And by the way, what I said was not worthy of dropping me down to -1 karma.  All I did was speak the truth.

[Hugenerd]

All the points you're making are mirrored in Raymond's defense.  Raymond had a severe ankle injury as well, missing 3 starts, yet Wheaton was 21-1 WITH him as a starter.  That's right 21-1 with the only loss coming to eventual national champion Wash U deep in the NCAA tournmanent.  Yes, Raymond froze, but it obviously wasn't any worse than Bartolotta's final game in Providence.  Bartolotta could not knock down ANY shots for the last several minutes of the game when it was on the line.  Reality is is that shining on the #1 ranked team in the country with a better supporting cast against top competition is much more impressive than averaging 28 points per game against small New England colleges, regardless of coverage style.  I know you are a MIT apologist, which is completely fine, but everyone knows that Kent Raymond deserved the D3 Hoops POY that year.  And yes, Jimmy deserved to First-Team All-American on D3 News.  And by the way, what I said was not worthy of dropping me down to -1 karma.  All I did was speak the truth.

"Everyone" seems a bit of a stretch considering the people who count most voted for Bartolotta (NABC, D3Hoops, Jostens, you know, people who actually saw both players play).

Also, I can only knock your karma once a day, so I wasnt the only one that dinged you. And it wasn't for "speaking the truth", but rather for drudging up a dead argument based on some hearsay of a road fan.  My comment was completely, relevant to the current conversation, which is the credibility of D3News, and I didn't go to a board I don't frequent to start an argument either. If you want to come to this board to make an intelligent comment, that's one thing, but coming on here to say that you heard second or third hand that a road fan three years ago said Bartolotta choked isn't going to get you greeted with open arms.

[mass_d3fan]

I have not yet had time to back and check the previous discussions about DIII News, but from what I have seen, I think they are not all that far off the mark.  Year in and year out in all sports there are those who feel "their guys" did not get credit they deserve or the honors the feel they earned.  Perhaps Pat can offer up just how close the D3 Hoops votes were between Raymond & JB that year.  Also we see Sporting News put together an entire page for D3, do we seriously think they put any of their top basketball guys on evaluating the 400 D3 schools?  Or that who ever they put on it takes more than a cursory look at D3?

It would be rather foolish to think every publication is going to pick its honorees exactly as all the others have.  Any player who gets a nod should be honored that there are knowledgeable people out there taking notice of their contributions to their teams.  It is unlikely that any of us have ever seen all those who should be considered.  We are all "tainted" by what we see with own eyes versus what we hear or read from other sources.

[Hugenerd]

I dont really take the Sporting News very seriously either.  The reason I take D3Hoops and NABC the most seriously is because: a) D3Hoops does the best job of covering this level of bsaketball on a consistent basis (ie, they dont just have a monthly or preseason/season ending issue, they cover day in and day out), and b) NABC is voted on by the coaches, so they typically scout players in their region and talk to other coaches that have seen players play in person, so they have more knowledge on the topic than the average observer (with that said, NABC does set some restrictions regarding number of awardees per region, which doesnt necessarily mean the top players make the first team, but it does mean that the top player in each region makes the first team and the 2nd best makes the 2nd team). Also, there have been times when I have strongly disagreed with the D3Hoops teams, but for the vast majority of times, D3Hoops does the best job of all the outlets.  In other words, you are much more likely to find several head scratchers each year in the D3News rankings than in the D3Hoops or NABC.  To go along with the amount of time D3News spends on their rankings, or lack thereof, there have been multiple instances where they have even misspelled players names, which goes to show they didnt even take the time to double-check the players they were picking and weren't that familiar with the players in the first place.

Its also a lot easier to watch the top players play nowadays that a lot of games are broadcast via the web.  For example, I saw Raymond play 4-5 games via that route his senior year. 

Finally, Pat has already discussed and defended his choice of POY from a few years ago at length.  I dont think there is any reason to rehash this.  If you are interested, the discussion is on the multiregional boards, All-Americans thread, from about 2.5 years ago.

[high flyer 21]

All the points you're making are mirrored in Raymond's defense.  Raymond had a severe ankle injury as well, missing 3 starts, yet Wheaton was 21-1 WITH him as a starter.  That's right 21-1 with the only loss coming to eventual national champion Wash U deep in the NCAA tournmanent. 

Forgive me for being so childish, Wheaton with Raymond starting was 25-1, not simply 21-1.  MIT under Bartolotta that year was 21-9 with losses to middle-of-pack Gordon, Salem State, Babson and Coast Guard scattered throughout the year to name a handful.  D3Hoops took into account the rarity of a player of Bartolotta's caliber coming out of a school like MIT, NOT his sheer basketball ability.  The Josten's Trophy and First Team All-American would have done Jimmy justice.  I'm glad DIII News was there to offer the more accurate insight into national POY that year.

[Hugenerd]

All the points you're making are mirrored in Raymond's defense.  Raymond had a severe ankle injury as well, missing 3 starts, yet Wheaton was 21-1 WITH him as a starter.  That's right 21-1 with the only loss coming to eventual national champion Wash U deep in the NCAA tournmanent. 

Forgive me for being so childish, Wheaton with Raymond starting was 25-1, not simply 21-1.  MIT under Bartolotta that year was 21-9 with losses to middle-of-pack Gordon, Salem State, Babson and Coast Guard scattered throughout the year to name a handful.  D3Hoops took into account the rarity of a player of Bartolotta's caliber coming out of a school like MIT, NOT his sheer basketball ability.  The Josten's Trophy and First Team All-American would have done Jimmy justice.  I'm glad DIII News was there to offer the more accurate insight into national POY that year.

If he is such a superior basketball player, why is Bartolotta still playing in top level European basketball divisions (Italy's Serie A his first season and the Super League the last 2 seasons) and Raymond only played one season in Spain's 4th (regional) division? Any conspiracy theories to explain that?

Raymond was a great player, I saw him play on several occasions, but your arguments that he is better than Bartolotta based on team success are not compelling to me.  Raymond was definitely on a better team that year, but that was because he had other AA-level players in his supporting class.  MIT literally had 7-8 guys suiting up most games, and none of them were near the level of an AA. In fact, I bet a lot of those guys wouldn't have even made Wheaton's roster that year. Restating team records is great, but I am sure Pat had that information available to him when he made the final decision, so I am fairly certain more went into it than that.  If the only metric was team success, then the best player on the national champion would win the award each year (why didnt Aaron Thompson win it that year?), but thats not how the decision is made.  Team success is definitely a factor, but above some level of team success, you have to look at the individual also.  Both players were very deserving, but I disagree that Bartolotta was any less deserving than Raymond or won for any reason other than his basketball talent.

[high flyer 21]

Wikipedia says Bartolotta is currently playing in Iceland.  From what I know about Raymond, basketball is not of upmost importance to him so I wouldn't be suprised if he's pursuing other professional interests.  Raymond did very well during his time in Spain's LEB League, which although is marginally below Spain's ACB league (the best league in the world behind the NBA) is extemely competitive and probably on par with the Italian league Bartolotta played in.

Let me end by saying that Gregory Sager, who has seen countless Division III games across the nation AND seen several POY's play in person for over his 30+ years affiliated with this level, upholds Raymond over Bartolotta for 2009's D3Hoops POY.  He noted very profoundly that the only other two people besides Raymond to be the CCIW's Most Outstanding Player three times (IWU's Jack Sickma and North Park's Michael Harper) both excelled in the NBA.  Sager, an archrival of Wheaton, states that "I would never glorify a Wheaton student-athlete unnecessarily just to tout the CCIW as a whole" but "Of all of those thousands of players, I would count Kent Raymond -- whom I saw play about 25-30 times over the course of his career -- among the five best D3 players I have ever seen." [stated March 26, 2009 in the Multi-Regional All-American board].  Bartolotta was an exceptional player as well, but he simply was not as special of a player as Kent Raymond was.