MBB: NEWMAC

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'll just say I was a Raymond guy from the beginning.  I think his explosion onto the scene as a freshman was pretty spectacular.  He maintained a very high level of play throughout.  He was incredibly talented.  I was on his bandwagon until I finally got to see Bartolotta play a few times.

Raymond might even be the better teammate, but based on individually ability, Bartolotta was the better player that year.

One of the intriguing things about d3 is that, although there are a lot of guys who play at an incredibly high level, there are, from time to time, guys who are clearly a level beyond d3.  Players for whom the pace and style of the d3 game are just too easy.  This is not to degrade any of the great, great d3 players out there, but it's the only way I can explain it.  Bartolotta was one of those guys.  That doesn't make him "better" necessarily or even more valuable (in fact, most players I put into this category actually don't reach their potential and struggle to give their team everything it needs because of the disparity) - it just means he was the superior player that year in my mind.  Hands down.

[Hugenerd]

Wikipedia says Bartolotta is currently playing in Iceland.  From what I know about Raymond, basketball is not of upmost importance to him so I wouldn't be suprised if he's pursuing other professional interests.  Raymond did very well during his time in Spain's LEB League, which although is marginally below Spain's ACB league (the best league in the world behind the NBA) is extemely competitive and probably on par with the Italian league Bartolotta played in.

Let me end by saying that Gregory Sager, who has seen countless Division III games across the nation AND seen several POY's play in person for over his 30+ years affiliated with this level, upholds Raymond over Bartolotta for 2009's D3Hoops POY.  He noted very profoundly that the only other two people besides Raymond to be the CCIW's Most Outstanding Player three times (IWU's Jack Sickma and North Park's Michael Harper) both excelled in the NBA.  Sager, an archrival of Wheaton, states that "I would never glorify a Wheaton student-athlete unnecessarily just to tout the CCIW as a whole" but "Of all of those thousands of players, I would count Kent Raymond -- whom I saw play about 25-30 times over the course of his career -- among the five best D3 players I have ever seen." [stated March 26, 2009 in the Multi-Regional All-American board].  Bartolotta was an exceptional player as well, but he simply was not as special of a player as Kent Raymond was.

I am not going to argue anymore, because the fact that Bartolotta won the 4 major national POY awards (D3hoops, Cosida/ESPN, NABC and Jostens) speaks for itself.  There are a ton of very knowledgeable people voting for those awards, and the fact that Bartolotta did not win a one off award from a guy who publishes in Oregon does not diminish that.

I will have to correct you on one thing, though. Raymond did NOT play in the LEB (the original Wheaton release that he played in the LEB silver (Spanish third division) is wrong).  He played at L'Hospitalet for 1 year, which is in the Spanish 4th division (the EBA division). 

From Eurobasket: http://www.eurobasket.com/team.asp?Cntry=esp&Team=1352

Note the "Spain-EBA" designation below the team.  Then look to the tab on the left and find "EBA" listed as the 4th division from the top, and click to see the full list of teams in the EBA.

There are 75 EBA teams, which are regional teams, that compete in 6 different groups.  Above the EBA are the LEB Silver, LEB Gold, and the ACB leagues, meaning there are at least 49 teams better than any team in the EBA in Spain.  In that same season, Bartolotta played on Air Avellino, which is in the Italian 1st division (Serie A).  The Italian first division is ranked in the top 3 European leagues, including the Spanish ACB and the Greek top Leagues.  Therefore, even if you tried to argue that Raymond played in the Spanish 2nd division, which he didnt, it still would not be as prestigious as the Italian first league. Bartolotta's teammates that season were DeMarcus Nelson (college: Duke), Dee Brown (college: Illinois), Chevy Troutman (College: Pitt), and Cenk Akyol (Turkish national team), among others. In order to get more playing time, he went to the Iceland Superleague where he has averaged almost 30 ppg the last two seasons. Including taking his team from second to last place in the league when he came in half way through last season, to the playoffs by the end of the season.

I am done with this argument, Bartolotta won all four major awards.  If Raymond would have gotten at least one of those, from a recognized source, this could be a great debate, but he didnt.  (D3Hoops is recognized by the NCAA, they even use their poll; NABC is voted on by the NCAA coaches; ESPN/CoSida is published in ESPN; and Jostens is recognized by pretty much everyone as the most prestigious student-athlete award in D3.  The only person that recognizes DIII News as the source for D3 basketball is, well, DIII News.)  Bartolotta was the better player that season, and was rightfully recognized for it, by multiple prestigious outlets.  Raymond may have had a better career, I dont know, but this wasnt a career award, it was for a single season.  I am not sure why this had to be dredged up when no one on this board mentioned Raymond or the DIII News POY from 3 years ago (I originally only mentioned the DIII News first team, which had nothing to do with Raymond).  Therefore, unless you have some argument based on facts that are actually accurate, let us please drop the subject.

[magicman]

You present a pretty good argument in JB's favor. Plus k!

[mass_d3fan]

My apologies - I did not realize this was going to turn into such a big deal.

HN - I responded the way I did because you stated:

"I'm personally not sold on DIII News. The year Bartolotta won D3Hoops and NABC POY and the Jostens, I think D3News had him on the third or fourth team."

I did not realize there had been criticism of DIII News some years ago.  I went solely based on your response that you were not sold on them because they had him on the 3rd/4th team. 

My whole point here was to simply acknowledge that a publication that followed D3 basketball had given an honor to another NEWMAC player.  We do not have to agree with everything they do, but it is also foolish to think every publication is going to pick the same 25 (or 50+ preseason) people or place them in the same order.

Take a look at any award and you are going to find people who disagree on who deserves it.  From the Heisman Trophy to the MVP in any sport.  Hell, it took until last year for the first time for a unanimous vote for the NFL MVP and only once has there been a unanimous NBA MVP.

[Pat Coleman]

D3Hoops took into account the rarity of a player of Bartolotta's caliber coming out of a school like MIT, NOT his sheer basketball ability. 

Pretty sure this isn't true. I can tell you for sure that wasn't even discussed once.

[CCC Talk]

I can't wait to read HugeNerd's upcoming thesis about how Jimmy B controls both space and time.

My favorite Jimmy B story was when he went and played in the Reese's all star game at the final4 on a team coached by Nolan Richardson and reportedly Nolan asked him if he was hurt and when he responded in the negetive Nolan then asked "then why are you moving so slow"

The kid had an unreal career, and through lucky ancestry was able to play overseas while not counting as an American. Can't fault the kid for that. What's more he was a nice kid who was fun to watch play. In the grand scheme of things does anyone other than the followers of this board and the parents of those involved really care who was the national D3 player of the year in a given year...probably not.

[Pat Coleman]

And the teams and coaches and ... well, you get the idea.

[Hugenerd]

My apologies - I did not realize this was going to turn into such a big deal.

HN - I responded the way I did because you stated:

"I'm personally not sold on DIII News. The year Bartolotta won D3Hoops and NABC POY and the Jostens, I think D3News had him on the third or fourth team."

I did not realize there had been criticism of DIII News some years ago.  I went solely based on your response that you were not sold on them because they had him on the 3rd/4th team. 

My whole point here was to simply acknowledge that a publication that followed D3 basketball had given an honor to another NEWMAC player.  We do not have to agree with everything they do, but it is also foolish to think every publication is going to pick the same 25 (or 50+ preseason) people or place them in the same order.

Take a look at any award and you are going to find people who disagree on who deserves it.  From the Heisman Trophy to the MVP in any sport.  Hell, it took until last year for the first time for a unanimous vote for the NFL MVP and only once has there been a unanimous NBA MVP.

Mass - had no problem with what you said, I agree that Carr is a good player and it is great for him to get recognition.  When he and Hollingsworth were both healthy 2 years ago, they had some nice head-to-head matchups.  I just happen to hold a different opinion about that publication.  My opinion of the publication does not mean that those players are not great players, just that I don't think that publication follows this division thoroughly enough to make the most educated decisions about who the best players in the division are (similar to Sporting News).

[Hugenerd]

I can't wait to read HugeNerd's upcoming thesis about how Jimmy B controls both space and time.

My favorite Jimmy B story was when he went and played in the Reese's all star game at the final4 on a team coached by Nolan Richardson and reportedly Nolan asked him if he was hurt and when he responded in the negetive Nolan then asked "then why are you moving so slow"

The kid had an unreal career, and through lucky ancestry was able to play overseas while not counting as an American. Can't fault the kid for that. What's more he was a nice kid who was fun to watch play. In the grand scheme of things does anyone other than the followers of this board and the parents of those involved really care who was the national D3 player of the year in a given year...probably not.

Until I am done with that, the Institute of Physics in London wrote a piece on Bartolotta earlier this year which you can read:

http://www.iop.org/careers/workinglife/profiles/page_51715.html

[Titan Q]

In the grand scheme of things does anyone other than the followers of this board and the parents of those involved really care who was the national D3 player of the year in a given year...probably not.

Apparently the Wheaton faithful still do.

I've read this thread very quickly, so I apologize if I have missed something, but...

1) Are you sure the poster advocating for Kent Raymond (high flyer 21) is a Wheaton fan?  I'm not sure he/she has ever posted in the CCIW room.

2) Even if high flyer 21 is a Wheaton fan, is it fair to single out "the Wheaton faithful" on this?  It's just one poster, right?

[Pat Coleman]

In the grand scheme of things does anyone other than the followers of this board and the parents of those involved really care who was the national D3 player of the year in a given year...probably not.

Apparently the Wheaton faithful still do.

I've read this thread very quickly, so I apologize if I have missed something, but...

1) Are you sure the poster advocating for Kent Raymond (high flyer 21) is a Wheaton fan?  I'm not sure he/she has ever posted in the CCIW room.

2) Even if high flyer 21 is a Wheaton fan, is it fair to single out "the Wheaton faithful" on this?  It's just one poster, right?

True, looks like high flyer 21 has posted on this topic, and has posted extensively in the CCC conversation, but little elsewhere and not in the CCIW at all.

[Hugenerd]

In the grand scheme of things does anyone other than the followers of this board and the parents of those involved really care who was the national D3 player of the year in a given year...probably not.

Apparently the Wheaton faithful still do.

I've read this thread very quickly, so I apologize if I have missed something, but...

1) Are you sure the poster advocating for Kent Raymond (high flyer 21) is a Wheaton fan?  I'm not sure he/she has ever posted in the CCIW room.

2) Even if high flyer 21 is a Wheaton fan, is it fair to single out "the Wheaton faithful" on this?  It's just one poster, right?

Agreed, didnt mean to offend anyone.  I agree that one shouldnt make an assumption about a population from just ones person's opinion, and I just assumed that one opinion was from a Wheaton fan. My apologies.

[NEWMACJACK]

Enough with Jimmy and Raymond.  Both very good players and they have moved on.  The argument can go back and forth.  I support Jimmy in this race but  know very little about Ray.  Probably true for most besides Pat C. who may have watched both players and teams.  Jimmy is a top 5 NEWMACer of all time....any comments who may be the other 4 or the best team NEWMAC team ever...hey its the NEWMAC board isn't it??

[Hugenerd]

NEWMAC is historically a guard heavy league, so most of these players are guards.

Jimmy Bartolotta - MIT
Michael Parker - Springfield
Sean Fleming - Clark
Derek Yvon - Springfield
Noel Hollingsworth - MIT

I know that many people would have Ryan Cain (WPI) on there, he would probably be my 6th or 7th man based on the awards he won.  His numbers were never hugely impressive, in my opinion, and he wasnt a guy who would really take over a game, but he was solid, but up good numbers, and led his team to some great seasons.  I added one true big man for posterity (Hollingsworth).  I know its pretty early in his career (he only played one full season) to put him on, but in terms of his talent and impact, he will be there when its all said and done.

[nescac1]

Hassan Robinson and Donta Johnson from Springfield in the 1990's were REALLY tough, but I am not sure if Springfield was in NEWMAC by then (they transititioned in the mid 1990's from D-II to D-III but I am not sure of the exact timeline).  I am pretty sure Robinson played when Springfield was still D-II, otherwise he would easily be the best player (and probably best overall athlete, a baseball superstar as well) in NEWMAC history.  But Johnson was really tough too.  I'd put him in over Parker or Yvon.