MBB: NEWMAC

[Hugenerd]

Well that is settled then.

[jabnike23]

hugenerd,

you forgot to mention the blatant elbow Kates threw at Harkins before he got thrown to the floor

[mass_d3fan]

Gentlemen,

After yet another slow start, WPI cranked it up in the last 2 minutes of the first half and then in the second to run away from Clark, 69-52 on Senior Day.  The Engineers spread the wealth with players scoring in double digits. Ben Etten put up 12 points, 5 rebounds & 2 steals and  Jeff Robinson tossed in 12 points. Kyle Nadeau  had 11 points and 2 steals & Matt Carr posted 11 points, 8 boards, 3 blocked shots and 2 steals.  Jerome Stewart grabbed 8 rebounds to share the game-high with Carr. Jamie Shannon dished out a game-high 4 assists.

Clark was led by Brian Vayda's 12 points and 7 rebounds. DJ Bailey and Travis Curley each put up 10 points.  Bailey added 6 boards and 2 blocks and Curley had 3 assists. Jeff Tagger chipped in with 7 points and Jake Gubitose added 6.

This one was a repeat of recent slow and out-of-sync starts for WPI until late in the first half.  With 1:42 to go, Jameel Galloway's lone basket gave the Engineers their first lead, 24-23, since 14:13 left.  DJ Bailey tied it going 1for 2 at the line.  Two Carr free throws gave WPI the lead for good and a nice reverse lay-up by Nadeau made it 28-24 at the half.  Before that, Clark outplayed the Engineers and had their biggest lead at 15-7 after a Vayda 3-ptr.

The second half started out with 2 steals by Carr leading to 5 points by Robinson sandwiched around 5 By Etten. A 3-ptr by Nadeau followed and pushed the lead to 12.  Clark would get as close as 10 with 5:15 to go, but two free throws by Shannon and a 3-ptr by Etten thwarted that comeback attempt.  Carr put the exclamation point on the win with the 2nd of two monster dunks over Bailey.

WPI honored their four seniors before the game: Ben Etten, Jeff Robinson, Kyle Nadeau & Ryan Stock.


As Hugenerd noted, MIT destroyed Springfield.  I was expecting a better performance from the Pride after their upset of WPI.  Not sure if they tanked this one or not – I'll defer to NH on that.  After the win over WPI, I had Cavalieri in position to take POY, but after a 4 pt performance, and his team falling to 3rd place, that race for that award is open again.  I was also surprised that Harkins had such a bad performance scoring just a single point.  Good News for Springfield was the on-going good play by Jordan Rote off the bench.  He posted a team-high 18 points.

Anyone have any insight into why Coburn did not play?  Injury?  Illness? Discipline? He looked fine on Wed.


Coast Guard won a close one over Wheaton, 68-65.  Jevon James led the Bears with a double-double of 15 points and 12 boards. Kevin Sowers had a game-high 19 points and Devonte Weems went for 12.

Wheaton said good-bye to senior Anthony Coppola as he posted 10 points with 8 boards and finished his career as the Lyon's 2nd all-time scorer. Bruno Naylor led Wheaton with 12 points and Brendan Degnan added 11.

[Hugenerd]

hugenerd,

you forgot to mention the blatant elbow Kates threw at Harkins before he got thrown to the floor

Yeah, but the elbow was part of the game.  Harkins was playing Kates tight and Kates swung the ball through strong and caught Harkins with the elbow.  It was part of game action and he was called for an offensive foul (as he should have).  However, Harkins cheap shot came at least 10 seconds after the play had ended, during a dead ball situation.  What Kates did happens quite often in game action and he was given the appropriate punishment (a foul, he may have even been assessed an intentional, as I think any elbow is now considered an intentional by the NCAA (new rule this year)), Harkins hitting Kates was well after the play was over and is more the type of action that warrants further review, and could lead to suspension.

[jabnike23]

I'm just making sure the other readers know the situation what led up to the shove.  Kates leaned in with an intentional elbow and then the players chested up with each other.. some words were exchanged, and Harkins pushed him.  I'm just trying to make sure the readers get the whole story.. not the partial hugenerd story

[mass_d3fan]

Sounds like the same play that happened between Coburn & Perez last year, except there was no foul called and it escalated to a fight.

[Hugenerd]

It was nothing like that.  Jabnike is simply skewing the facts to make Harkins not look bad.  The elbow was clearly unintentional by Kates.  He actually brought the ball over Harkins head to try to avoid contact, but I guess he made some minor contact (debatable).  Harkins proceeded to roll around on the ground for 10 seconds, after which Kates clearly came over with his hand extended, to apologize, and Harkins hit him in the chest (which Kates did not expect and was thrown to the floor).  I personally think hitting any player that far after a play should warrant a suspension, and I hope the NEWMAC looks at it, but I obviously dont make the decisions.  Harkins didnt even get a T on that play, because the refs somehow missed it, when he probably should have been ejected.  If he had been ejected, I think that would have been a suitable punishment, but since he was not, I think the NEWMAC needs to do something.

You can see for yourself at the link below (the clip starts with Harkins bricking a 3, followed by the play in question):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsaNl57iFV0

"I'm just trying to make sure the readers get the whole story"

[jabnike23]

Not once did I say that what Harkins did "wasnt bad".  Sure he should have got a T, probably not thrown out.  And for your little video.. its pretty much how i described it.  Kates throws an elbow, the players chest up, a few comments were said (im sure none of which were nice, you think Kates is going to give him a hand.. If Kates is giving him a hand and apologizing there is no reason Harkins reacts like that), then Harkins pushes him.  Relax hugenerd, it was an elbow by one player, a shove by another, get over it.

"Im just trying to make sure the readers get the whole story"

[Hugenerd]

Not once did I say that what Harkins did "wasnt bad".  Sure he should have got a T, probably not thrown out.  And for your little video.. its pretty much how i described it.  Kates throws an elbow, the players chest up, a few comments were said (im sure none of which were nice, you think Kates is going to give him a hand.. If Kates is giving him a hand and apologizing there is no reason Harkins reacts like that), then Harkins pushes him.  Relax hugenerd, it was an elbow by one player, a shove by another, get over it.

"Im just trying to make sure the readers get the whole story"

You described Kates elbow as deliberate, trying to up-play what Kates did and downplay what Harkins did.  Tell me what in that video looks deliberate to you? If any, there was very minimal, unitentional contact from Kates.  Then, Kates clearly extends his hand to give him a high-five to apologize.  We do agreee on one thing, that there is no reason for Harkins to react like that, thats why I think he should have been ejected.  I didnt see Kates hit anyone, even if there were words exchanged, so obviously Harkins responded to the situation poorly.  You honestly believe that if you hitting someone that long after a play doesnt deserve an ejection? What if Kates had done the same thing to Harkins? I bet you would have been singing a different tune right now.  Its too bad for Harkins the officials didnt see it, because I cant see that going without punishment.

By the way, I dont think either of needs to help the readers get the whole story any longer, because neither of us were involved, and therefore the video can tell the story for itself.

[Hugenerd]

Further, one of the core values of the NEWMAC is (directly from the NEWMAC website): "Integrity - We act with mutual trust and respect for all and place emphasis on sportsmanship and ethical conduct."

Also, according to the NCAA rule book, any flagrant foul is grounds for automatic ejection from a game.  A flagrant foul is defined as "A flagrant contact technical foul occurs when the ball is dead and the contact is severe (serious, deliberate) or extreme (applied to the greatest degree" (Rule 4, Article 3, Section f, which is on page 73 of the NCAA rulebook http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR11.pdf).

I think we can clearly agree that the contact Harkins made was deliberate.  This is the same type of technicality by which Kates was given a technical foul on the same play (his elbow was not deliberate, but by the letter of the law it was a technical; however, it was during live play).  Since Harkins was not ejected from that game, his punishment should be likewise in the next contest.

[jabnike23]

I understand where you're coming from, but Kates does lean in with the elbow.  From the video you cannot tell how much of the elbow landed or maybe did Harkins push Kates that hard or was Kates selling that too?  Those are things we cant tell.   Also words were exchanged.. obviously something was said to trigger a shove.  Either way its a push... not a punch.. a push.  If Kates did it to Harkins or Harkins did it to Kates I think it is a T.  That's all.. it happens all the time in college ball, one player pushes another and gets awarded a T.  

My main issue is that didn't like is that all you described it as was a "cheap shot".  I dont know where you're from, but where im from a "cheap shot" is like a punch to the back of the head, doing something where they clearly arent looking, or a third person jumping in on a fight.  They were clearly face to face and therefore I dont think it is a cheap shot.  It was just an altercation.

Hopefully we get a good semi-final game Saturday.. It should be interesting to see how the teams react.

[Hugenerd]

I understand where you're coming from, but Kates does lean in with the elbow.  From the video you cannot tell how much of the elbow landed or maybe did Harkins push Kates that hard or was Kates selling that too?  Those are things we cant tell.   Also words were exchanged.. obviously something was said to trigger a shove.  Either way its a push... not a punch.. a push.  If Kates did it to Harkins or Harkins did it to Kates I think it is a T.  That's all.. it happens all the time in college ball, one player pushes another and gets awarded a T.  

My main issue is that didn't like is that all you described it as was a "cheap shot".  I dont know where you're from, but where im from a "cheap shot" is like a punch to the back of the head, doing something where they clearly arent looking, or a third person jumping in on a fight.  They were clearly face to face and therefore I dont think it is a cheap shot.  It was just an altercation.

Hopefully we get a good semi-final game Saturday.. It should be interesting to see how the teams react.

The reason I continued the argument was because I didnt like the tone of your previous posts (as I said, I felt you were inflating what Kates did and downplayed what Harkins did).  I think the main difference is still that one act was in play and the other was during a dead ball, in addition to Harkins actions being deliberate. I also dont agree that Kates foul is in any way mitigating to Harkins actions.  You can get upset because someone sets a very hard, legal pick, but that doesnt give you the right to turn around and hit them after the play is order.  Also, the NCAA does not differentiate between punches, shoves, or kicks.  It is either deliberate contact or non-deliberate contact.  The only distinction is if there is actually a fight, in which case there is mandatory suspensions. Harkins deliberate contact was clearly intended to make physical contact with Kates in an aggressive manner.  The reason I called it a cheapshot was because it looked to me like Kates was coming over to apologize, after which Harkins hit him.  If I felt that Kates was confronting him, obviously it wouldnt be a cheapshot, but thats where I was coming from.

[jabnike23]

My tone... what are you my mother

Severe and Extreme are aimed towards a punch, not a shove... Get your eyes out of the rulebook and your calculator and watch a basketball game for once.  If every shove after a play ended in an ejection.. there would be a lot more ejections not technicals.  Just play basketball and stop contributing to the pussification of America.

[Hugenerd]

My tone... what are you my mother

Severe and Extreme are aimed towards a punch, not a shove... Get your eyes out of the rulebook and your calculator and watch a basketball game for once.  If every shove after a play ended in an ejection.. there would be a lot more ejections not technicals.  Just play basketball and stop contributing to the pussification of America.

I played 4 years in the UAA and coached as an assistant 1 year in the NEWMAC, so my knowledge of basketball is not in question.  Regardless of what you say, you cant hit a player after the ball is dead. As I said previously, the word "punch" is not in the NCAA rulebook.  It is deliberate contact, which is what Harkins did.

Just because I dont make up words like "pussification" and I am able to read texts longer than text messages does not make your argument any more valid.  I would argue the inverse actually.

[mass_d3fan]

jabnike

1.  The initial elbow from Kates is NOT, repeat NOT intentional!  He steps back, Harkins crowds him, as Kates moves the ball up over his head, his elbow does indeed appear to make contact with Harkins.  This play happens a lot under these circumstances.  It is not intentional.  The official called Kates for a foul.  End of play - period!

2. Harkins was way out of line with the shove and should have been T'ed and quite possibly ejected.  Nothing was called because for some reason, there were 3 bone-headed officials not paying any attention,.  The outside official who called the foul is out of frame, he is going to be going to the scorer's table to report the foul.  The baseline official gets the ball from Kates.  The 3rd guy is one closest to us seem totally indifferent to the fact he has a player down on the court.  After Harkins got to his feet, these guys decided it was conference time and were not paying attention to the players.

Nerd is right, this was not an immediate emotional reaction to something. You could have claimed that if Harkins got up and went after Kates, he didn't.  Tremendous lack of sportsmanship and poise on Harkins part.  It is not first time for him – You do remember your own post about him from the first WPI/Springfield game don't you?

'First of all Harkins should have been tossed for putting Ettens head into the floor about 3 times.'

So....which player obviously has an issue controlling himself when things are not going his way?


Also, After seeing this video, I called a couple of people who I know who were at that semi-final game last year.  They looked at this video and both told me the elbow portion of this play is virtually identical to the Coburn/Perez incident.  Both Perez and Harkins crowded the offensive player and took elbow contact to the head.  Last year, no call – a retaliatory push from Perez, a push from Coburn and then both players started throwing punches.  The officials in that game never even reacted until fists were flying.

You may think that just allowing the shoving to go is no big deal, I assure you that when the officials refuse to control the game, the players do it on their own – and it often leads to things like that fight last year.