BB: CCIW: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Wow, Jacob Husing gave up 5 unearned runs on 5 infield errors by the Redmen. Very uncharacteristic of Carthage. Like Augie always says, we're as good as any team in this country. It doesn't matter who we play, we are playing against ourselves.  Clearly, the Redmen beat themselves today.

Doesn't sound to me as though you're giving Aurora any credit at all. Did the Spartans simply show up and stand around waiting for Carthage to throw the game away? Or did the Spartans actually have something to do with the final outcome?

Given the long-term success of that program (this will be Aurora's sixth appearance in the D3 College World Series), I suspect that it might be the latter. The box score also indicates that the Spartans may have had a hand in their victory. Aurora's pitchers struck out ten Carthage batters, while Carthage's pitchers didn't strike out any Spartans. That's ten more chances that Carthage was forced to handle in the field, and ten fewer opportunities for the Spartans to make errors.

Aurora went on to beat Mount St. Joseph later on Friday, then took a pair from Millsaps on Saturday to advance to the D3 College World Series. The Spartans are currently 34-12. I'm not a Carthage fan, but if I were I'd be tipping my cap to the team that beat mine, rather than dissing them by insisting that my team's defeat was totally self-inflicted.

[emeritusprof]

Well, I guess you could also say Carthage hitters gave Aurora's catcher ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

"Facts" from which no conclusions can be drawn are hardly worth knowing.

[REDMENFAN]

Sager, I wasn't trying to take anything away from Aurora, and I gave them praise and congratulated them on their conference's message board on Friday when they beat Carthage.  My point was that when a team (any team) loses a game 5-4, and all of the runs you gave up were unearned on infield errors when you've played solid defense all year, you are going to feel as a team that you beat yourselves.  Yes Aurora put the ball into play and forced the issue and made things happen, so I do give them credit. Especially finding a way to win 3 more after that game and make it to the world series.  I think you completely misinterpreted my statement, or maybe it just came out wrong. The point I was trying to make is that if Carthage plays good defense, they win that game. But woulda, shoulda, coulda's don't matter in baseball...Aurora is going to the series and that's all that really matters at this point.

[Gregory Sager]

Well, I guess you could also say Carthage hitters gave Aurora's catcher ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

"Facts" from which no conclusions can be drawn are hardly worth knowing.

Ah, but facts (no scare quotes) from which conclusions can be drawn are vital to understanding the issue at hand. The truth of D3 baseball is that it is a different animal than the sport as it is played at the professional level. Errors are much more prevalent, and therefore less can be assumed about routine balls in play being turned into outs. Strikeouts are thus a more potent defensive weapon, since they eliminate the possibility of what in D3 ball is a more marked propensity for bad things to happen in the field.

Sager, I wasn't trying to take anything away from Aurora, and I gave them praise and congratulated them on their conference's message board on Friday when they beat Carthage. My point was that when a team (any team) loses a game 5-4, and all of the runs you gave up were unearned on infield errors when you've played solid defense all year, you are going to feel as a team that you beat yourselves. Yes Aurora put the ball into play and forced the issue and made things happen, so I do give them credit. Especially finding a way to win 3 more after that game and make it to the world series. I think you completely misinterpreted my statement, or maybe it just came out wrong. The point I was trying to make is that if Carthage plays good defense, they win that game. But woulda, shoulda, coulda's don't matter in baseball...Aurora is going to the series and that's all that really matters at this point.

You didn't give Aurora any credit at all in your initial post. Rather, you said that "it doesn't matter who we play, we [Carthage] are playing against ourselves. Clearly, the Redmen beat themselves today." There's not an ounce of credit for the Spartans in that post. You've now changed your tune and given the Spartans their props, which I think is the sportsmanlike thing to do.

[mr_b]

Well, I guess you could also say Carthage hitters gave Aurora's catcher ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

... Errors are much more prevalent, and therefore less can be assumed about routine balls in play being turned into outs. Strikeouts are thus a more potent defensive weapon.

After years and years of scoring games, I can attest to the fact that a fielding error is far more common than a dropped third strike which results in a fielding chance.

[emeritusprof]

Fact: Cathage batters DID give the Aurora catcher(s) ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

Nothing changes that FACT!

[BigPoppa]

Fact: Cathage batters DID give the Aurora catcher(s) ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

Nothing changes that FACT!

You can't argue with "Da Professor..." He has a valid point.

[REDMENFAN]

Sager, I said I congratulated them on THEIR conferences webpage, not the CCIW's. From now on i just won't bring up facts from a game if that will make you happy. I just thought 5 errors leading to 5 unearned runs was a pretty big factor in that game.

[emeritusprof]

Red -- You are quite correct.  Five errors and five unearned runs are indeed relevant FACTors in the loss.

And yes, it's another case of "could have been" and "should have been."  We now must live with it.

[Pat Coleman]

Fact: Cathage batters DID give the Aurora catcher(s) ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

Nothing changes that FACT!

You can't argue with "Da Professor..." He has a valid point.

Only if Division III batters are as likely to reach base on a dropped third strike as they are on another kind of error. Seems unlikely.

[Gregory Sager]

Sager, I said I congratulated them on THEIR conferences webpage, not the CCIW's. From now on i just won't bring up facts from a game if that will make you happy. I just thought 5 errors leading to 5 unearned runs was a pretty big factor in that game.

Nobody disagreed with that.

There's no need for you to play the martyr. As far as I was concerned, the issue was put to rest when you belatedly gave the Spartans their props.

Fact: Cathage batters DID give the Aurora catcher(s) ten more opportunities to drop the third strike.

Nothing changes that FACT!

You can't argue with "Da Professor..." He has a valid point.

Only if Division III batters are as likely to reach base on a dropped third strike as they are on another kind of error. Seems unlikely.

It's more than unlikely. As Mr. B said, a fielding error on a batted ball is far more common than a dropped third strike that results in a fielding chance.

CCIW teams collectively averaged almost two errors per game this season, which an examination of past seasons' records demonstrates is typical of this league. And CCIW batters hit for a cumulative .317 average this season. In baseball it's axiomatic that a strikeout is the best possible outcome for the defense, since the chances of it resulting in something that benefits the offense (i.e., a dropped third strike in which the runner reaches first base) are miniscule in comparison to the chances of a batted ball resulting in something that benefits the offense. That's true on every level of baseball. But it's even more true in D3 baseball, where the defenses and pitching aren't as good as the pros and hitters have a better chance of getting on base either via error or by knocking a hit through the defense than their pro counterparts enjoy.

[emeritusprof]

Yes or No -- Carthage hitters gave the Aurora catcher(s) ten opportunities to drop the third strike.

That item has nothing to do with other error issues.

[Gregory Sager]

It also has a relevance to the outcome of Friday's game that comes fairly close to zero, because a dropped third strike resulting in the batter reaching first is so rare.

Why are you even bothering to bring it up?

[emeritusprof]

I could let it go, why can't you!

You jumped all over Redman with your 'facts.'  I simply indicated something that created a possibility because of the strikeouts. 

Now go ahead.  As is your wont, take the last word. 

[Pat Coleman]

I don't understand why you are insisting on extending the conversation over something so stupid as this, emeritus. Why don't you go back to trying to convince me of the name of my hometown newspaper?