BB: CCIW: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[upandin]

Upandin... you are digging yourself a hole here. Are you trying to say that the lower half of the CCIW is not as good as the lower half of the IIAC, SLIAC and MWC?

OUT OF CONFERENCE RECORDS IN 2009:
*Elmhurst, the last place team in the CCIW in 2009, was 9-8 out of league. Northpark was 10-7, North Central was 4-12 and Millikin was 6-8. That puts the CCIW's bottom four at 29-35 (.453%).

The IIAC's bottom four were 24-38 (.387%)

The MWC's bottom four were 25-40 (.384%)

The SLIAC's bottom four were 14-30 (.318%)

Don't worry Captain, Pappa has a long way to go to bring thunder on me. And Im not digging any holes. I love stats that paint us a better picture.  But his stats need to look a little deeper.  Turtlehead is right it depends on who they play.  For example: ( and Im sure the other conferences are similar but ) the CCIW schools you gave us stats on:   Elmhurst 9-8 non conference record is actually 3-7 vs teams over .500, North Park 10-7 was actually also 3-7 vs teams over .500, North Central was 4-12 vs teams over .500, and Millican was 3-5 vs teams over .500.  That is a grand total of a 13-31 non conference record vs teams over .500.  So that .453 just dropped to .295 (just slightly below average)

Sorry Turtlehead you make good points but, St. Norbert had a 21-12 in region record (#2 in the Central Region) Bethany wasn't even in the top 6 of the Midwest.  Here is another one for you:  Webster was 24-0 in SLIAC but their In-region record was not good enough to get them in.  In region record is huge, opponents winning percentage is important as well.  In fact they even look at opponents /opponents winning percentage. 

My point this whole time is sometimes people don't see reality when they are a fan.  Look around and give some people credit.

[BigPoppa]

Which IIAC team would you like me to give credit to? I have said from the start that it is a conference full of closely-balanced teams which, sadly, allows them to pound each other and not creep up the rankings (much like the American Southwest Conference). They need a stand-out team or two in order to give the conference some national recognition.

FYI: I have pushed for years for a Central Region showdown with a centralized venue hosting a weekend of games (3-4 per team) where all the four conferences top teams are matched up as are the bottom teams and middle teams head-to-head to help shake out the contenders from the pretenders.

Buena Vista could be the sleeper of the region. If they had not stumbled last season, they could have made a nice run to Appleton.

[CCIWFAN6]

I am a little confused why we are spending so much time lookin up the stats of the struggling teams in these conferences.  Baseball, for the most part, is judged by the teams at the top. No one talked about the American League East not being a good division a few years ago when they had the Blue Jays, Orioles, and the then Devil Rays taking their lumps.  They focus on the American League East being one of it not the best division in baseball because of the Yankees and Red Sox.

With that being said, sports are cyclical. Teams, especially college teams, have ups and downs.  It is the nature of the student athlete.  What is most important it to look at how consistent programs stay over time.  Not one or two individual seasons.

[mr_b]

I love stats that paint us a better picture.  But his stats need to look a little deeper.  Turtlehead is right it depends on who they play.  For example: ( and Im sure the other conferences are similar but ) the CCIW schools you gave us stats on:   Elmhurst 9-8 non conference record is actually 3-7 vs teams over .500, North Park 10-7 was actually also 3-7 vs teams over .500, North Central was 4-12 vs teams over .500, and Millican was 3-5 vs teams over .500.  That is a grand total of a 13-31 non conference record vs teams over .500.  So that .453 just dropped to .295 (just slightly below average)

Now just run the same analysis for the other conferences so we can compare apples to apples.

[OshDude]

Some 2009 IIAC vs. CCIW matchups I still had on the blog. I condensed most schedules of noncontenders late in the year, leaving just in-region records.

Loras went 1-1 vs. Millikin
Loras 0-1 vs. Augustana
Buena Vista 1-0 vs. Elmhurst
Wartburg 0-1 vs. IWU
Simpson 1-1 vs. Wheaton

2009 in-region records(OWP's ... I only did final OWP's for the top 18 C/MW Pool A/C teams. For comparison's sake, St. Thomas's and UWW's were .559, St. Norbert's was .543, St. Olaf's was .552,  Stevens Point's was .569, Wash U was .491, Oshkosh's was .557, CSS's was .535 ... IWU's led the two regions):
Buena Vista 22-13
Central 15-17
Coe 22-13 (.532)
Cornell 7-21
Dubuque 5-25
Loras 20-13 (.500)
Luther 27-13 (.478)
Simpson 17-21
Wartburg 23-18

Augustana 19-15
Carthage 28-3 (.547)
Elmhurst 7-22
IWU 22-15 (.572)
Millikin 8-17-1
North Central 10-17-1
North Park 15-17
Wheaton 21-16 (.541)

Hope that helps you guys come closer in determining indeterminacy. My vote goes to the CCIW. Whatever that's worth. I'm glad we don't have MIAC vs. WIAC scrums on the Midwest boards.

[BigPoppa]

Thanks, OshDude. Your blog is probably the best resource out there for any information on the Midwest and Central Regions. Keep up the great work.

[BigPoppa]

Big Poppa's Pre-season All-CCIW Team
1st team:
*P-    Mike Giovenco (NPU) 1st team in 2009
   Tim Urbanowicz (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
   Mario Perez (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

C-    Mike Corrigan (North Central) 2nd team in 2009

1B-    Dave Hoffman (Augustana) 1st team in 2009

2B-   Brett Moore (IWU) 1st team in 2009

SS-    Brian Kolb (Wheaton) 2nd team in 2009

3B-    Zach Hofer (Elmhurst) 1st team in 2009- Co-Player of the year in 2009

OF-    Kraig Ladd (IWU) 1st team in 2008 and 2009
                Charlie Antal (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
                Will Hodges (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

•   One note of interest. The CCIW's top three arms may come from a trio of guys returning from 2009 injuries. Carthage's Chris Krepline and Scott Danly, as well as IWU's Brett Kulavic, are all highly decorated pitchers who return in 2010 and could very well the three best pitchers in the CCIW if they return to form.
•   Secondly, looking over the all-CCIW team form 2009, it is often hard to predict the next season as the CCIW gives awards for infielders as a whole and NOT by position. For example, two second basemen were named to the 2009 first team and no shortstop. In some cases, I took the liberty of choosing one player over another based on what I expect to see from them in 2010.
I know I left a few deserving guys out, but it provides for good debate.

Pitcher of the Year- Mike Giovenco (North Park)
Co-Players of the Year- Kraig Ladd (IWU) and Zach Hofer (Elmhurst)

[BigG296]

Big Poppa's Pre-season All-CCIW Team
1st team:
*P-    Mike Giovenco (NPU) 1st team in 2009
   Tim Urbanowicz (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
   Mario Perez (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

C-    Mike Corrigan (North Central) 2nd team in 2009

1B-    Dave Hoffman (Augustana) 1st team in 2009

2B-   Brett Moore (IWU) 1st team in 2009

SS-    Brian Kolb (Wheaton) 2nd team in 2009

3B-    Zach Hofer (Elmhurst) 1st team in 2009- Co-Player of the year in 2009

OF-    Kraig Ladd (IWU) 1st team in 2008 and 2009
                Charlie Antal (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
                Will Hodges (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

Pitcher of the Year- Mike Giovenco (North Park)
Co-Players of the Year- Kraig Ladd (IWU) and Zach Hofer (Elmhurst)

I like your picks for the most part BP.  I would substitute Danly for Perez and then as you stated, Kulavic is kind of a wild card with his injury, however if he is back to 2008 form then there's no reason for him to not make All CCIW.

[CCIWFAN6]

Big Poppa's Pre-season All-CCIW Team
1st team:
*P-    Mike Giovenco (NPU) 1st team in 2009
   Tim Urbanowicz (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
   Mario Perez (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

C-    Mike Corrigan (North Central) 2nd team in 2009

1B-    Dave Hoffman (Augustana) 1st team in 2009

2B-   Brett Moore (IWU) 1st team in 2009

SS-    Brian Kolb (Wheaton) 2nd team in 2009

3B-    Zach Hofer (Elmhurst) 1st team in 2009- Co-Player of the year in 2009

OF-    Kraig Ladd (IWU) 1st team in 2008 and 2009
                Charlie Antal (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
                Will Hodges (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

•   One note of interest. The CCIW's top three arms may come from a trio of guys returning from 2009 injuries. Carthage's Chris Krepline and Scott Danly, as well as IWU's Brett Kulavic, are all highly decorated pitchers who return in 2010 and could very well the three best pitchers in the CCIW if they return to form.
•   Secondly, looking over the all-CCIW team form 2009, it is often hard to predict the next season as the CCIW gives awards for infielders as a whole and NOT by position. For example, two second basemen were named to the 2009 first team and no shortstop. In some cases, I took the liberty of choosing one player over another based on what I expect to see from them in 2010.
I know I left a few deserving guys out, but it provides for good debate.

Pitcher of the Year- Mike Giovenco (North Park)
Co-Players of the Year- Kraig Ladd (IWU) and Zach Hofer (Elmhurst)

BP, you change your POY pick?

[BigPoppa]

Big Poppa's Pre-season All-CCIW Team
1st team:
*P-    Mike Giovenco (NPU) 1st team in 2009
   Tim Urbanowicz (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
   Mario Perez (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

C-    Mike Corrigan (North Central) 2nd team in 2009

1B-    Dave Hoffman (Augustana) 1st team in 2009

2B-   Brett Moore (IWU) 1st team in 2009

SS-    Brian Kolb (Wheaton) 2nd team in 2009

3B-    Zach Hofer (Elmhurst) 1st team in 2009- Co-Player of the year in 2009

OF-    Kraig Ladd (IWU) 1st team in 2008 and 2009
                Charlie Antal (Wheaton) 1st team in 2009
                Will Hodges (Carthage) 2nd team in 2009

•   One note of interest. The CCIW's top three arms may come from a trio of guys returning from 2009 injuries. Carthage's Chris Krepline and Scott Danly, as well as IWU's Brett Kulavic, are all highly decorated pitchers who return in 2010 and could very well the three best pitchers in the CCIW if they return to form.
•   Secondly, looking over the all-CCIW team form 2009, it is often hard to predict the next season as the CCIW gives awards for infielders as a whole and NOT by position. For example, two second basemen were named to the 2009 first team and no shortstop. In some cases, I took the liberty of choosing one player over another based on what I expect to see from them in 2010.
I know I left a few deserving guys out, but it provides for good debate.

Pitcher of the Year- Mike Giovenco (North Park)
Co-Players of the Year- Kraig Ladd (IWU) and Zach Hofer (Elmhurst)

BP, you change your POY pick?

I did change my pick. After some research, I figured that Ladd had a better chance to win the player of the year over Kolb and  I felt I needed to give a co-player nod to Hofer as he was co-player of the year in 2009.

Maybe a tri-player of the year split with Kolb, Ladd and Hofer:)

[Gregory Sager]

Upandin... you are digging yourself a hole here. Are you trying to say that the lower half of the CCIW is not as good as the lower half of the IIAC, SLIAC and MWC?

OUT OF CONFERENCE RECORDS IN 2009:
*Elmhurst, the last place team in the CCIW in 2009, was 9-8 out of league. Northpark was 10-7, North Central was 4-12 and Millikin was 6-8. That puts the CCIW's bottom four at 29-35 (.453%).

The IIAC's bottom four were 24-38 (.387%)

The MWC's bottom four were 25-40 (.384%)

The SLIAC's bottom four were 14-30 (.318%)

BP,
     I see what you are trying to show here, but as you know it all depends on what teams they played.  Elmhurst may have had a winning record, but if they did it by playing the Helen Keller institute of Technology it doesn't mean all that much.  I would be much more interested in how each conference has done against each other.  (Like you already requested under the Central region board)

Here's the head-to-head results of the four Central Region leagues over the past four seasons, including both regular-season and post-season results (the numbers listed here are wins, not runs):

2009: CCIW 6, IIAC 3
2008: CCIW 2, IIAC 1
2007: CCIW 5, IIAC 2
2006: IIAC 8, CCIW 7
TOTAL: CCIW 20, IIAC 14

2009: CCIW 4, MWC 3
2008: CCIW 10, MWC 1
2007: CCIW 8, MWC 1
2006: CCIW 6, MWC 0
TOTAL: CCIW 28, MWC 5

2009: CCIW 8, SLIAC 3
2008: SLIAC 4, CCIW 3
2007: SLIAC 12, CCIW 7
2006: CCIW 9, SLIAC 3
TOTAL: CCIW 27, SLIAC 22

2009: MWC 7, IIAC 5
2008: IIAC 8, MWC 3
2007: IIAC 3, MWC 0
2006: IIAC 11, MWC 6
TOTAL: IIAC 27, MWC 16

2009: IIAC 5, SLIAC 4
2008: IIAC 6, SLIAC 1
2007: IIAC 7, SLIAC 4
2006: IIAC 6, SLIAC 1
TOTAL: IIAC 24, SLIAC 10

2009: MWC 4, SLIAC 2
2008: MWC 3, SLIAC 1
2007: MWC 10, SLIAC 1
2006: MWC 8, SLIAC 2
TOTAL: MWC 25, SLIAC 6

Central Region standings, 2006-09

league	W	L	PCT
CCIW	75	41	.647
IIAC	65	46	.586
MWC	46	61	.430
SLIAC	38	76	.333

[BigPoppa]

Upandin... you are digging yourself a hole here. Are you trying to say that the lower half of the CCIW is not as good as the lower half of the IIAC, SLIAC and MWC?

OUT OF CONFERENCE RECORDS IN 2009:
*Elmhurst, the last place team in the CCIW in 2009, was 9-8 out of league. Northpark was 10-7, North Central was 4-12 and Millikin was 6-8. That puts the CCIW's bottom four at 29-35 (.453%).

The IIAC's bottom four were 24-38 (.387%)

The MWC's bottom four were 25-40 (.384%)

The SLIAC's bottom four were 14-30 (.318%)

BP,
     I see what you are trying to show here, but as you know it all depends on what teams they played.  Elmhurst may have had a winning record, but if they did it by playing the Helen Keller institute of Technology it doesn't mean all that much.  I would be much more interested in how each conference has done against each other.  (Like you already requested under the Central region board)

Here's the head-to-head results of the four Central Region leagues over the past four seasons, including both regular-season and post-season results (the numbers listed here are wins, not runs):

2009: CCIW 6, IIAC 3
2008: CCIW 2, IIAC 1
2007: CCIW 5, IIAC 2
2006: IIAC 8, CCIW 7
TOTAL: CCIW 20, IIAC 14

2009: CCIW 4, MWC 3
2008: CCIW 10, MWC 1
2007: CCIW 8, MWC 1
2006: CCIW 6, MWC 0
TOTAL: CCIW 28, MWC 5

2009: CCIW 8, SLIAC 3
2008: SLIAC 4, CCIW 3
2007: SLIAC 12, CCIW 7
2006: CCIW 9, SLIAC 3
TOTAL: CCIW 27, SLIAC 22

2009: MWC 7, IIAC 5
2008: IIAC 8, MWC 3
2007: IIAC 3, MWC 0
2006: IIAC 11, MWC 6
TOTAL: IIAC 27, MWC 16

2009: IIAC 5, SLIAC 4
2008: IIAC 6, SLIAC 1
2007: IIAC 7, SLIAC 4
2006: IIAC 6, SLIAC 1
TOTAL: IIAC 24, SLIAC 10

2009: MWC 4, SLIAC 2
2008: MWC 3, SLIAC 1
2007: MWC 10, SLIAC 1
2006: MWC 8, SLIAC 2
TOTAL: MWC 25, SLIAC 6

Central Region standings, 2006-09

league	W	L	PCT
CCIW	75	41	.647
IIAC	65	46	.586
MWC	46	61	.430
SLIAC	38	76	.333

Fantastic research, Greg. Thanks.

[Gregory Sager]

Here's an NPU news release about nine Vikings signing with summer leagues for 2010.

What are your thoughts about NCAA-sanctioned summer leagues, Big Poppa and others? Are there mostly scholarship-level players in these leagues, or are there a lot of D3 players mixed in on the rosters? Is nine players an unusually high number to come from a CCIW program (or any D3 program in general)? Are these leagues really that important to player development, or is this just a PR stab at something that sounds prestigious? Are summer leagues pushed by the coaches of the three schools that have dominated CCIW baseball over the past decade? In short, is this something upon which the North Park program can hang its hat?

[BigPoppa]

Anytime a kid can play in an NCAA summer league, it is a great thing for the player. It is certainly a step above playing for thier hometown summer team. For NPU to have 9 guys is unheard of and great for their program. In the past, I have sent players to the Northwoods League and the Hawaiian League and they generally fare quite well. Depending on the league, some are stacked with D1 guys. The Alaskan League and Cape Cod League are ususally full of D1 prospects, but recent successes by D3 players in the Northwoods League has really opened the door for many more players.

Beware... many successful D3 players in summer league suddenly transfer over the summer to play with a coach from the summer at his college program in D1 or D2 or some gravitate towards their teammates' programs. As a coach, it is great to have your players in a high caliber league for the summer as the added reps will only translate to better number the next spring. Plus, it gives your own program exposure. Kudos to Coach Luke Johnson for landing nine of his best on summer rosters already.

Looking at which leagues they are playing in, Giovenco is playing the Northwoods League (Rochester Honkers)which is by far the best of the leagues the NPU guys are signed to. He deserves to play in that league. As a coach, my biggest concern would be making sure he does not get scooped up by another program which happens a lot in the Northwoods League.

[Gregory Sager]

Thanks for your response, BP. Good stuff.