BB: CCIW: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

(BTW, has that always been the case as a concession to distance, that all three games are either in B'town or Kenosha, and just alternate years, or is there a problem with Carthage's field that weekend?  And if it is due to distance, I wonder if the same situation will apply for Carroll once they rejoin the conference?)

Can't answer the second part of that question, but I can tell you that both Augie and IWU traveled to Kenosha for all three games last season, and, every other year for a long ways back.  So, alternate years due to distance would be my guess.

Thanks.  I just checked the CCIW master schedule and see that Carthage and Millikin also do it that way.  I had just never noticed that before - probably because I can't ever recall a season where the Titans were so drastically different between home and away.   Since the conference sets the schedule, I would imagine they will also do Carroll the same way.

[BigPoppa]

Does Carroll join next year?

Gonna be a big jump for them coming from the MWC where they struggled to compete... Not going to be easier in the CCIW. Can we assume there will be one team with a CCIW bye weekend once Carroll joins?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Does Carroll join next year?

Gonna be a big jump for them coming from the MWC where they struggled to compete... Not going to be easier in the CCIW. Can we assume there will be one team with a CCIW bye weekend once Carroll joins?

Not 'til 2016-17 if I recall correctly.

Scheduling is always a bit of a mess with an odd number of teams.  I suppose there would have to be one school with a bye weekend.  With spring weather, I'd imagine there will have to be more midweek conference games to get a whole season in - up to now those have usually just been for weather make-ups, but some will probably now have to be scheduled from the get-go.

[BigPoppa]

I am guessing that many of the mid-week single games will become DHs. Can't really start any earlier as the weather makes it impossible.

[Gregory Sager]

Does Carroll join next year?

Gonna be a big jump for them coming from the MWC where they struggled to compete... Not going to be easier in the CCIW. Can we assume there will be one team with a CCIW bye weekend once Carroll joins?

That would seem to be a strong possibility, but we don't know that yet. What we do know is that Augie coach Greg Wallace will no longer be the schedulemaker for the league.

I'd like to see the league office take over the task, examine the past schedules of other nine-team D3 leagues, and adopt a fair, consistent CCIW scheduling policy that includes ongoing rotation from year to year based upon those proven models once Carroll begins league play the school year after next.

[iwumichigander]

Agree with CCIW league office taking over scheduling duties, with no disrespect to effort of Coach Wallace. The league already coordinates the officials, the schools fund the league and the scheduling just makes good sense (cents).

[mwunder]

Not sure what's up with the Carthage season stats, but they haven't been updated since after the 8th game of the season.  Steve M is usually all over this.  Wunder, yes pun intended, what's going on in K-Town.

[jester13]

Why wouldn't they look for another team to join to make it more uniform?

[mwunder]

Carthage beats Rockford today 13-6 to move to 18-6 overall.  17 hits for Carthage in this one.  The game was 10-0 going into the 7th but since the coaches didn't agree on a mercy rule before the game, they played it out.  It did give Jared Helmich one more AB to extend his hitting streak to 24 games, which he did.  3rd longest streak in Carthage history behind Glenn Braun (26) and Justin Hallock (25).  The Red Men play U of Chicago tomorrow in Kenosha.

[Gregory Sager]

Why wouldn't they look for another team to join to make it more uniform?

Do you mean "team" as in "add another baseball program to what will be the nine in the CCIW in order to make it an even ten baseball programs?", or do you mean member, as in ten full-member institutions of higher learning that each have a full-sized athletic department? Because they're not the same thing. F'rinstance, the CCIW added a "team" (technically called an associate member) in both men's and women's swimming, Rose-Hulman, in order to reach the D3 minimum standard for the league to qualify for an automatic berth to the national meets of those two sports. Likewise, the league has added two "teams" apiece, Carroll (which is not yet a full member school of the CCIW) and Dubuque, for men's and women's lacrosse. Rose-Hulman, Carroll, and Dubuque aren't full CCIW members. All of the rest of Rose-Hulman's sports are played within the rubric of the HCAC, of which RHIT is a full member, and likewise Carroll within the MWC and Dubuque within the IIAC.

Going on the perhaps-wrong assumption that you meant "member" instead of "team", the answer is that the CCIW really wasn't looking to expand when the eight CCIW presidents decided to re-admit Carroll to the league. From what I understand, it was more a matter of Carroll applying and the presidents then saying, "Well, Carroll used to be a member of our league, and it's still a good fit for us, so ... why not?"

Now, you and I and perhaps a whole bunch of us who aren't school presidents and who are looking at this from a pragmatic, nuts-and-bolts point of view that involves things such as schedule-making and travel may look at the addition of Carroll and see it as something of a net minus. Nine really does seem like a backward step from eight, especially when we're talking about a school that's located well north of even the northernmost CCIW school and quite a distance altogether from the CCIW's three downstate (or cross-state, if you want to be technical about Augie) schools.

But I don't get the impression that, having arguably created a problem where none previously existed, the presidents feel motivated (or obligated) to correct it by adding a tenth school. They've explicitly said that further expansion is not an immediate agenda item for the league.

[BigPoppa]

Even if they DID want a tenth member, I have no idea where they'd turn. MWC teams seem like a great fit for that conference(and balanced with Carroll leaving). The NathCon schools all appear to be a nice fit for that league as well... Thought I COULD see Aurora, Concordia-Chicago, or Illinois Benedictine being good baseball fits in the CCIW, though not sure about other sports. 

[Gregory Sager]

Benedictine (no "Illinois" in the name since 1996, BP) will never be asked to join the CCIW. North Central would never allow its neighbor down the street to join the league, and there are other CCIW members who are opposed to a Catholic school joining the league, since it would then presumably have a leg up on recruiting Chicago Catholic League and East Suburban Catholic Conference student-athletes. It's a shame, in a sense, because in terms of facilities and overall competitiveness Benedictine is as close as the NACC can muster to having a CCIW-level athletic department. The school's endowment size, however, is tiny when compared to CCIW schools (only $12m or thereabouts).

Concordia (IL) really isn't up to snuff with the CCIW in any sport besides baseball, and it has an even smaller endowment than does BU. The Cougars would not be a good fit for the CCIW at all. Aurora would be marginally better, but really not a good fit, either. The best NACC match for CCIW membership besides Benedictine in terms of facilities and overall competitiveness would be Concordia (WI), and it's not as though CUW would be an ideal member, either -- although it would make a good travel partner with Carroll.

There's been talk of St. Norbert being interested, but that's really not a front-burner thing. I don't see that happening.

The best fit among current D3 members would most likely be DePauw or Rose-Hulman, but those schools are well off the beaten path as far as CCIW geography goes. If Lake Forest ever expressed any interest in rejoining the CCIW it'd make an intriguing choice (excellent location, impeccable academic stature, strong endowment), but I've never heard of there being any interest at LFC in going down that road -- and in terms of competitiveness, LFC would be an even weaker addition than Carroll (although the Foresters have a heckuva handball team ).

[Mr. Ypsi]

Even if they DID want a tenth member, I have no idea where they'd turn. MWC teams seem like a great fit for that conference(and balanced with Carroll leaving). The NathCon schools all appear to be a nice fit for that league as well... Thought I COULD see Aurora, Concordia-Chicago, or Illinois Benedictine being good baseball fits in the CCIW, though not sure about other sports.

Other sports - we use them for OOC target practice!   While I have nothing against Carroll, I thought (and have often expressed) that EIGHT is the perfect size for a conference.  Just about the right balance of conference and non-conference games, a double-round robin in basketball (and full round-robin in fball, while still having 3 OOC games), and the opportunity for a 'killer' SOS - and no necessity for 'bye' weeks!

So, who should we kick out?   For lack of competitiveness in many sports, we could say NPU - but Greg would kick my ass, and there would go 83% of our national titles in men's basketball.   OK, NPU stays.  IF we were to kick out anyone, I would say it is Millikin.  They are an outlier geographically (a whole 30+ miles south of IWU); and in the 'key' sports have lately been uncompetitive.  On the other hand, they do have 1/3 of the national titles in women's basketball for the conference.  While I doubt it is true today, in my day Millikin was the most bitter rival of the Titans (before my senior year, they had Jesse Price, arguably the best player in CCIW basketball history - IWU/Millikin games were BEYOND sell-outs at either location.)  While Millikin would be a geographical fit for the SLIAC (and would be an immediate title contender in most sports), I am in no way suggesting they should go that route.

For better or for worse, I guess we are a nine team conference.

[Gregory Sager]

"Kick out"? Methinks you misunderstand the purpose of the league, Chuck. It's not at all about intra-league competitiveness, although coaches and athletic directors certainly want every member of the league to hold up their end of the bargain. The purpose of this league -- and pretty much every other league in D3 of which I am aware -- is to bring together like-minded and similarly-profiled institutions for the sake of athletic competition. While the member schools of this league certainly have their distinctives that distinguish them from each other, the general idea is that: a) the league affords student-athletes the opportunities to compete with similar student-athletes in similar environments; and b) the member schools are simpatico on the larger issues regarding intercollegiate athletics.

Yes, Wheaton was asked to leave at one point, but let's be serious -- that was during the Eisenhower Administration, over half a century ago, and the circumstances surrounding the status of the league then were light-years apart from what they are now.

Look at it this way: Has the SCIAC ever tried to kick out Caltech? Heck, when Macalester, whose football futility in the MIAC was a match for NPU's in the CCIW, opted out of that league for football purposes, there was a tremendous hue-and-cry among the other MIAC schools regarding their being abandoned by the Scots.

Nobody's going to be asked to leave the CCIW, and nobody's going anywhere.

[BigPoppa]

I have always thought that Millikin would be a great fit for the SLIAC.

Adding St. Norbert's (Green Bay) would provide for a brutal road trip for IWU, Millikin and Augustana... looking at 6-7 hours each way. I know that many Texas schools have 10-12 hour trips one-way, but that is because there are few others D3 programs in those regions. Taking SNC would be interesting if only having to bypass a lot of other schools on the ride (almost the entire MWC North as well as much of the NAAC).

I hate unbalanced conferences for that reason alone... open weekend scheduling issues.