FB: New Jersey Athletic Conference

[wesleydad]

That is why I am not comparing the Wesley line to the majority of the D3 teams.  I know the line would be good for 99% of the teams. 

Okay...but this whole conversation was centered around Baynard vs. Andrews for all-region, because some Baynard supporters were pointing out that his stats were roughly equal to Andrews, and other people are countering that Baynard had a a great offensive line around him and Andrews didn't.

So it seemed like you were saying Baynard deserved it because Wesley's line wasn't actually all that good. But it seemed odd that you were using the standard of Mount Union to argue that Wesley's RB was more deserving of an award than Brockport's RB.

But, if you're just making a general statement about Wesley's line relative to what you've come to expect, I'm sorry for misinterpreting that.

Bombers, I was not the one calling for Baynard to be all region.  Waterboy posted stat comparisons.  I am not a stat person.  I like Baynard and was impressed by how hard he played.  All region, maybe, but I am ok with him not being on it.  Marcelin from Rowan was better from what I saw, he was limited due to injuries.  Wesley's weak spot seems to be the O line when it comes to the big boys.  No need to apologize, you are one of the best posters on this site and I enjoy reading your opinion.

The truth is we will never know how Wesley's oline would do on another team, but I can see where Wesleydad is coming from in a way.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wesley runs the spread all the time (unlike MTU I think), and one of the great things about the spread is that you don't need a great big traditional powerful oline, but you need smart linemen who can zoneblock.  In fact that is one of the reasons team run offesnes like that because you don't have to block everyone and speed is involved more than power. Having one of the best, if not the best,  scrambling QBs in the country adds to the equation where he can make plays despite defenders getting through the oline.

That being said, I would venture to guess that Wesley's oline is probably one of the top 20 in the country so who really knows for sure.

Utes, that is correct.  The offense is designed to run quick plays and Callahan saved many a play with his scrambling ability.

[@d3jason]

That 35 the Wolverines put up is looking pretty good right now.

[thewaterboy]

That 35 the Wolverines put up is looking pretty good right.

Really starting to wonder how Wesley and UWW would stack up.... and what would have happened had you eliminated Wesley's bad punt-int-fumble combo from last week.

wesleydad, I think you picked going to the better game last week!

[PA_wesleyfan]

Can't wait to hear the excuses, I mean reasons for this reason  for the blow out.

[Teamski]

Well, today's game really gave me a lot more appreciation for Wesley's offense, that is for sure.  It really is 2 degrees of seperation at this level.  I am very proud of Wesley football and what Drass and company have been able to achieve.  Wesley has been the only offense outside Whitewater to continually hang points on MU.  That says a lot about the program.

-Ski

[wesleydad]

Well, after watching what Mount did to UWW today I have to recant my average O line and suspect D comments.  Both have been put into perspective and obviously after watching the Mount D shut down UWW both running and passing, the Wesley O line was above average this year.  The defense, although they looked totally lost at times was able to shut down Mount for the second half last week.  So maybe they were better than I thought they were.  Maybe, just maybe, this Wesley team is the second best team in the country.  I guess we can assess that after next weeks game to see if either Linfield or UST can give them a game.

[thewaterboy]

Well, after watching what Mount did to UWW today I have to recant my average O line and suspect D comments.  Both have been put into perspective and obviously after watching the Mount D shut down UWW both running and passing, the Wesley O line was above average this year.  The defense, although they looked totally lost at times was able to shut down Mount for the second half last week.  So maybe they were better than I thought they were.  Maybe, just maybe, this Wesley team is the second best team in the country.  I guess we can assess that after next weeks game to see if either Linfield or UST can give them a game.

IMO, the o-line was helped last week by Callahan's scramble ability, but I think they were still a little better than in years past.

[Bombers798891]

My bad for misinterpreting stuff earlier. K+ for everyone!

[wesleydad]

My bad for misinterpreting stuff earlier. K+ for everyone!

No issues Bombers.  Seems like I may have misinterpreted how good this overall Wesley team was.  I knew how good the offense was and that shows even better after what Mount did to UWW.  I would like Wesley's O line to get to the level of the Mount and UST lines I saw yesterday, but they are the best so Wesley is not really that far away.  The defense did shut down Mount in the second half and it was not because Mount had called off the dogs because of the score.  They ran similar plays to the first half, Wesley just finally made plays.

[ExTartanPlayer]

My bad for misinterpreting stuff earlier. K+ for everyone!

I think the tough thing was that there were two sorta-related parallel conversations going on ("Should Baynard have been an all-region RB" and "How good was/is Wesley's offensive line?") that started to get intermingled.  I think we can safely conclude the following:

1) Joe Callahan is a beast

2) Jamar Baynard is a very, very good running back

3) Whether Baynard is definitively better than the other guys named All-Region  is very, very hard to answer (especially via statistical comparisons alone) because the other guys are not playing with Joe Callahan and rest of the Wesley offense.  It's a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg question (are Baynard's numbers better because he plays with a great QB that can loosen up defenses, or are Callahan's numbers better because he plays with a great RB that needs to be watched carefully in the run game?) it seems that the consensus is Callahan's the one who really stirs the drink, and that with all due respect to Baynard, one might argue that several good-quality Division III running backs could produce similar numbers if inserted into the Wesley offense.

This seemed to be where the two discussions got crossed.  Part of the explanation for Baynard's numbers vs. the other guys' numbers was "Well, Baynard plays on a better team, so he has more help" and that started to mix with a discussion of whether Wesley's OL was really that good (where the fact that Wesley had a couple OL's named all-region came up), and then we started to debate the Wesley OL...speaking of which...

4) That Wesley offensive line, despite whatever struggles they may have had against Mount Union, now looks a little better in hindsight after watching UWW's offense get shut down in Alliance.  Of course they, too, benefit from playing with Callahan and/or Baynard, but even if they had Superman and Batman playing QB and RB, getting 35 points onto the board against that Mount defense obviously required SOME blocking.

So in conclusion:

Callahan - a beast
Wesley OL - maybe better than given credit for (and commensurately recognized on all-region teams)
Baynard - a very, very good Division III running back who may or may not be 1st-team all-region material

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would have objected to Baynard's appearance on an all-region team, but it's probably fair that the other guys got recognition, too.

[Dr. Acula]

Callahan is making the drink, stirring the drink, refilling the drink.  Since he has the ball in his hands every play it allows his obscene talent to elevate the entire offense.  And it's not just his passing ability not allowing the defense to key on the run.  It's that he actually gives the offense X number of additional plays every game because he can make plays to move the chains that basically no one else in the country can make.     

[wesleydad]

My bad for misinterpreting stuff earlier. K+ for everyone!

I think the tough thing was that there were two sorta-related parallel conversations going on ("Should Baynard have been an all-region RB" and "How good was/is Wesley's offensive line?") that started to get intermingled.  I think we can safely conclude the following:

1) Joe Callahan is a beast

2) Jamar Baynard is a very, very good running back

3) Whether Baynard is definitively better than the other guys named All-Region  is very, very hard to answer (especially via statistical comparisons alone) because the other guys are not playing with Joe Callahan and rest of the Wesley offense.  It's a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg question (are Baynard's numbers better because he plays with a great QB that can loosen up defenses, or are Callahan's numbers better because he plays with a great RB that needs to be watched carefully in the run game?) it seems that the consensus is Callahan's the one who really stirs the drink, and that with all due respect to Baynard, one might argue that several good-quality Division III running backs could produce similar numbers if inserted into the Wesley offense.

This seemed to be where the two discussions got crossed.  Part of the explanation for Baynard's numbers vs. the other guys' numbers was "Well, Baynard plays on a better team, so he has more help" and that started to mix with a discussion of whether Wesley's OL was really that good (where the fact that Wesley had a couple OL's named all-region came up), and then we started to debate the Wesley OL...speaking of which...

4) That Wesley offensive line, despite whatever struggles they may have had against Mount Union, now looks a little better in hindsight after watching UWW's offense get shut down in Alliance.  Of course they, too, benefit from playing with Callahan and/or Baynard, but even if they had Superman and Batman playing QB and RB, getting 35 points onto the board against that Mount defense obviously required SOME blocking.

So in conclusion:

Callahan - a beast
Wesley OL - maybe better than given credit for (and commensurately recognized on all-region teams)
Baynard - a very, very good Division III running back who may or may not be 1st-team all-region material

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone would have objected to Baynard's appearance on an all-region team, but it's probably fair that the other guys got recognition, too.

ETP, all points are excellent and I agree with.  Another part would be the receivers were pretty good too.  I think that although Callahan may be most of it, he ended up being what he was because of the other pieces being as good as they were too.  You don't get 5000 yards on your own.

[Teamski]

Good luck to Joe Callahan on Wednesday!!  I know of no other candidate that would better deserve the Gagliardi trophy than he.  No other quarterback has come close in victimizing the Mount Union secondary as Joe has. I remember the buz among the coaches when he showed up as a freshman.  I will be honest.  I didn't see what they saw.  But, Coach Knapp was adamant that Callahan was somebody special.  At the time I was thinking to myself, "yeah like anybody can be better than McSweeny!"  Boy, did I get my socks blown off.  Joe, you are real thing, my boy!  Bring home the hardware!   

-Ski

[Bombers798891]

Let me ask a question, and I'm going to preface this with the following statements:

1. Wesley was not a one-man show
2. Wesley has graduated a ton of great players and continued to be great
3. I have no idea who is coming back/in the pipeline there

With all that said, I'm curious: Is there a feeling at Wesley that the team missed their chance, so to speak, with Callahan?

I know that before him, McSweeney was great. So maybe the next Wesley QB will be even better. Still, it seems like Callahan was the kind of once-in-a-generation player few teams get more than once. Is there a sense that this was a golden opportunity missed for Wesley?

[thewaterboy]

Let me ask a question, and I'm going to preface this with the following statements:

1. Wesley was not a one-man show
2. Wesley has graduated a ton of great players and continued to be great
3. I have no idea who is coming back/in the pipeline there

With all that said, I'm curious: Is there a feeling at Wesley that the team missed their chance, so to speak, with Callahan?

I know that before him, McSweeney was great. So maybe the next Wesley QB will be even better. Still, it seems like Callahan was the kind of once-in-a-generation player few teams get more than once. Is there a sense that this was a golden opportunity missed for Wesley?

Bombers, I think Wesley missed an opportunity with Callahan, but I think that an even bigger opportunity was missed when we graduated McSweeny. Speaking in terms of this season, I think many of us on the boards figured out that Wesley was going to go as far as their defense could take them. Giving up 56 to Mount Union was not an unexpected outcome by any means, and even with Callahan vs. Mount's #1 defense, that's a tough task. So in that sense, it does not feel so bad. BUT, I would take Wesley's offense over any in Division III this year, and that was where the opportunity was missed. The offense (and Callahan) would be in Salem right now if the defense resembled what it was in years past.

I think the opportunity missed was greater when we graduated McSweeny (even though Sottilare was set to start next year, and Callahan was a freshman) because of the context of the situation. That team met Mount in the semis, lost by 7 and was a dropped pass away from Salem. I think the D was better that year as well. This year, we still would have had to beat Mount in the quarters (the deficit was 21, but it hurts to imagine what would have happened if Wesley played the first half like they did the second half), then beat UWW in the semis just to get there, which I think would have happened.