FB: New Jersey Athletic Conference

[pumkinattack]

And that's why I said that I think there's five (or more) teams that are better than Curry in the East, I was responding to a NJAC poster who said that the NEFC had no out of conference win of note.  My response is, who did the NJAC play out of conference of note? 

JU, have you seen any teams other than Cortland this year?  No intent in that question, but I'm curious.  I think that the NJAC conference is a good conference, but I also think that all the East conferences are relatively weak this year.   

Ithaca has wins over Cortland and Lyco.  That's impressive this year.  Del Valley has Salisbury and Wesley, but didn't get enough done in conference.  After that, I can't think of any other out of conference wins of note in the East this year.

I don't want to be a defender of the NEFC because I also believe, though I can't prove, that they are inferior top to bottom.  But what evidence do we have that any team is good other than Ithaca at this point in the East?

[pumkinattack]

We're making conclusions based on the NJAC's non-conference schedule?

With that analysis we should now assume subtraction by addition. In other words, by adding the likes of Buffalo, Morrisville, Brockport, Western Connecticut and Cortland to the NJAC — so teams like Kean, WPU, TCNJ, Montclair and Rowan might have a prayer of filling out a ten game schedule — we should now assume all the NJAC teams have somehow become weaker on the basis of a one game non-conference schedule for each. Based on this assumption, what should we conclude about the NEFC?

When comparing conferences would anyone care to guess where the top two NEFC teams might have finished in the NJAC this year? Giving these two NEFC teams the benefit of the doubt, feel free to assume they got a leg up on the rest of the NJAC by scheduling Mount Union as their one non-conference foe for the year!

To answer your first, and probably sarcastic, question:  Yes.  In the case of Pool C, or "wildcard" playoff spots, there is no other way to compare teams all over the map with similar and/or identical records.  The NEFC hasn't beaten anyone out of conference either, but if you want to only use in-conference results, Curry had one loss in conference and MSU had two.  Again, I think that the top 3 in the NEFC would be middle of the pack (probably above Buff St., WPU and Morrisville, maybe one or two others) in the NJAC, but you can't know that.  I'm really not comfortable arguing in any way in defense of NEFC, and I hope its not construed that this is what I'm doing. 

Educate me on the conference though.  What is the institutional commonality that make Buffalo State and Brockport share with Rowan and Kean (and the rest of the conference)?  Or is it simply a function of a desire to lock in the bulk of the schedule for these schools?  If so, then the conference kind of made its own bed and this is the unintended consequence of that action.  You may have been facetious, but you may very well have created a subtraction by addition with the inclusion of these schools.   

This is a tough issue in DIII football and probably a larger overriding issue for many schools and conferences, but conferences are supposed to reflect longstanding institutional relationships or shared visons/goals.  Now we have the NAC siphoning off Norwich and the E8 is going to pick off a SUNY or two in all probability.  In other sports this issue isn't as relevant, but I'd suggest that we reduce the minimum Pool A qualifying conferences by one team.  That will give schools more flexibility to align themselves philosophically and achieve the competitive balance that they want. 

[Jonny Utah]

And that's why I said that I think there's five (or more) teams that are better than Curry in the East, I was responding to a NJAC poster who said that the NEFC had no out of conference win of note.  My response is, who did the NJAC play out of conference of note? 

JU, have you seen any teams other than Cortland this year?  No intent in that question, but I'm curious.  I think that the NJAC conference is a good conference, but I also think that all the East conferences are relatively weak this year.   

Ithaca has wins over Cortland and Lyco.  That's impressive this year.  Del Valley has Salisbury and Wesley, but didn't get enough done in conference.  After that, I can't think of any other out of conference wins of note in the East this year.

I don't want to be a defender of the NEFC because I also believe, though I can't prove, that they are inferior top to bottom.  But what evidence do we have that any team is good other than Ithaca at this point in the East?

No I havent seen much of anyone.  My point was more that the bottom teams in the east were a lot better than in years past and were able to give the top teams some good games.  That being said, Im not sure if Curry or Plymouth St could go 10-0 and 9-1 in the NJAC, E8, LL or MAC.

I agree with you in the sense that the Ncaa probably thought that way, but my feeling this year was that there were less bad teams than in previous years.

[rams1102]

And that's why I said that I think there's five (or more) teams that are better than Curry in the East, I was responding to a NJAC poster who said that the NEFC had no out of conference win of note.  My response is, who did the NJAC play out of conference of note? 

JU, have you seen any teams other than Cortland this year?  No intent in that question, but I'm curious.  I think that the NJAC conference is a good conference, but I also think that all the East conferences are relatively weak this year.   

Ithaca has wins over Cortland and Lyco.  That's impressive this year.  Del Valley has Salisbury and Wesley, but didn't get enough done in conference.  After that, I can't think of any other out of conference wins of note in the East this year.

I don't want to be a defender of the NEFC because I also believe, though I can't prove, that they are inferior top to bottom.  But what evidence do we have that any team is good other than Ithaca at this point in the East?

I'm a crazy MSU fan, and yes we deserve not to be in the NCAA's but not to Curry. Salisbury, Wooster, Del-Val, Hartwick OK. Just did the research on the NEFC. 16 teams with a record of 76-84. The NJAC 50-50. The NJAC has 10 teams so we only can have 1 out of conference game. The NEFC tends to play each other as out of conference.  There were 10 out of conference games and the NEFC lost 9 of 10. Salve beat SUNY Mar. That is why I'm angry that the NEFC got 2 NCAA bids. I have to get this out of my system. We blew a game we should have won and the NCAA screwed us. And by the way the NJAC was 5-5 out of conference. Sorry for venting, gotta get this out of my system.

[rams1102]

Ok, it's eating inside me, I always keep my big mouth shut, but here goes : If we made a QB change in the 4th quarter of the Kean game, we would be preparing for Ithaca this week.

[DanPadavona]

I thought we have problems in Washington, DC but the NCAA takes the cake. If you put Salisbury or Wooster in that would make sense

Good call Dave.  I've been looking over the teams, and honestly I don't think another East Region team deserved a Pool C bid.  They all fell on their faces down the stretch.  There were numerous teams on the bubble from the South and North regions who could have filled out "our" bracket, and been far more qualified than an NEFC team which didn't even make their own conference championship game.

[catchball]

Ok, it's eating inside me, I always keep my big mouth shut, but here goes : If we made a QB change in the 4th quarter of the Kean game, we would be preparing for Ithaca this week.

As I stated yesterday, I and many others agree with you 100%. With all that could have came out of this game, I'm not sure why Coach didn't go with Boysan at some point in the 2nd half. I am not one to speak bad about another player or a coach, but Fischer fell apart in the 2nd half and at that point we need to make a change.

[JT]

We're making conclusions based on the NJAC's non-conference schedule?

With that analysis we should now assume subtraction by addition. In other words, by adding the likes of Buffalo, Morrisville, Brockport, Western Connecticut and Cortland to the NJAC — so teams like Kean, WPU, TCNJ, Montclair and Rowan might have a prayer of filling out a ten game schedule — we should now assume all the NJAC teams have somehow become weaker on the basis of a one game non-conference schedule for each. Based on this assumption, what should we conclude about the NEFC?

When comparing conferences would anyone care to guess where the top two NEFC teams might have finished in the NJAC this year? Giving these two NEFC teams the benefit of the doubt, feel free to assume they got a leg up on the rest of the NJAC by scheduling Mount Union as their one non-conference foe for the year!

To answer your first, and probably sarcastic, question:  Yes.  In the case of Pool C, or "wildcard" playoff spots, there is no other way to compare teams all over the map with similar and/or identical records.  The NEFC hasn't beaten anyone out of conference either, but if you want to only use in-conference results, Curry had one loss in conference and MSU had two.  Again, I think that the top 3 in the NEFC would be middle of the pack (probably above Buff St., WPU and Morrisville, maybe one or two others) in the NJAC, but you can't know that.  I'm really not comfortable arguing in any way in defense of NEFC, and I hope its not construed that this is what I'm doing. 

Educate me on the conference though.  What is the institutional commonality that make Buffalo State and Brockport share with Rowan and Kean (and the rest of the conference)?  Or is it simply a function of a desire to lock in the bulk of the schedule for these schools?  If so, then the conference kind of made its own bed and this is the unintended consequence of that action.  You may have been facetious, but you may very well have created a subtraction by addition with the inclusion of these schools.   

This is a tough issue in DIII football and probably a larger overriding issue for many schools and conferences, but conferences are supposed to reflect longstanding institutional relationships or shared visons/goals.  Now we have the NAC siphoning off Norwich and the E8 is going to pick off a SUNY or two in all probability.  In other sports this issue isn't as relevant, but I'd suggest that we reduce the minimum Pool A qualifying conferences by one team.  That will give schools more flexibility to align themselves philosophically and achieve the competitive balance that they want. 

Buff St. and WPU would beat both NEFC teams easily.  Morrisville would at least split and go .500

[pumkinattack]

You're probably right, but I've been forming this debate in anticipation of a 8-1 RPI vs. a 9-1 MSU or 9-1 Rowan.  Having a ten team conference can be problematic in this system and that it makes comparisons that much more difficult unless the conference wins 90 - 100% of their non-conference games. 

Unfortunately, MSU and RPI dropped the ball and we have to watch two NEFC teams catch a beat down.  Still not sure how Lycoming, at 7-3 and not regionally ranked the prior week jumped Plymouth State in the seedings. 

[Knightstalker]

You're probably right, but I've been forming this debate in anticipation of a 8-1 RPI vs. a 9-1 MSU or 9-1 Rowan.  Having a ten team conference can be problematic in this system and that it makes comparisons that much more difficult unless the conference wins 90 - 100% of their non-conference games. 

Unfortunately, MSU and RPI dropped the ball and we have to watch two NEFC teams catch a beat down.  Still not sure how Lycoming, at 7-3 and not regionally ranked the prior week jumped Plymouth State in the seedings. 

Common sense reared its head for an instant?

[XREDDRAGON77]

Any NJAC schools pick up an ECAC game other than Brockport?  I am sure Montclair or Kean would have gotten awarded one with their records if they applied for eligibility.  Anybody know anything about Plymouth State?  Can't look past them although I am sure we will see a Cortland/ IC rematch down the road.

[maAggie]

PTI, but it's mind boggling to me that the D-III gurus stated prior to the selections being made that it wasn't who you lost to, but who you beat, thus it doesn't make sense that DVC wasn't under consideration as they beat both Salisbury and Wesley(their only loss). Yes, the faltered with a horrendous loss to FDU and two losses in horrific weather, but, if you listen to PC than they beat two of the better teams in D-III football. The fact that the MAC isn't more respected is also a mystery as there were 5 teams with winning records

School                 Conf  Overall
1. Lycoming           5-2   7-3
Delaware Valley   5-2   7-3
Albright                5-2   7-3
4. Lebanon Valley 4-3   6-4
Wilkes                  4-3   4-6
6. Widener            2-5   4-6
King's                   2-5   3-7
8. F D U - Florham 1-6   3-7

I suppose we'll get an little insight into the MAC v NJAC on Saturday when the DVC hosts Kean....

Of course this is only my IMHO

[gordonmann]

The ECAC match-ups are:

South Atlantic: Kean at DVC
Southeast: Catholic at Johns Hopkins
Southwest: Salisbury at Moravian
and the new South Central: Albright at Montclair State

Northeast is St. John Fisher at Husson
North Atlantic: Alfred at RPI
Northwest is: Brockport at Hartwick

All are 12 p.m. kickoffs.

[mel]

Here is the Rowan v Bridgewater State (NEFC) boxscore.

Take a hard look NJAC...
This was a game between an 8-2 Rowan team and a 7-3 Bridgewater team

Bridgewater matched up just fine in this one.  The disparity you mentioned is not so real for the top half of the NEFC (18 team league)

Rowan Punted 7 times this day
Rowan looked aweful on 3rd downs
Rowan did not make many first downs
Take a hard look.

This is the only comparison we have between the NJAC and NEFC....

                            Team Statistics (Final)
                        2008 NCAA Division III Football
    Rowan University vs Bridgewater State (Sep 06, 2008 at Bridgewater, MA)

                                    ROW      BSC

FIRST DOWNS...................       13       18
  Rushing.....................        9        4
  Passing.....................        3       10
  Penalty.....................        1        4
NET YARDS RUSHING.............      147       67
  Rushing Attempts............       42       39
  Average Per Rush............      3.5      1.7
  Rushing Touchdowns..........        1        1
  Yards Gained Rushing........      172      119
  Yards Lost Rushing..........       25       52
NET YARDS PASSING.............       87      223
  Completions-Attempts-Int....   8-18-0  13-34-2
  Average Per Attempt.........      4.8      6.6
  Average Per Completion......     10.9     17.2
  Passing Touchdowns..........        2        1
TOTAL OFFENSE YARDS...........      234      290
  Total offense plays.........       60       73
  Average Gain Per Play.......      3.9      4.0
Fumbles: Number-Lost..........      1-0      4-2
Penalties: Number-Yards.......     6-76     5-30
PUNTS-YARDS...................    7-261    5-143
  Average Yards Per Punt......     37.3     28.6
  Net Yards Per Punt..........     30.9     26.4
  Inside 20...................        1        1
  50+ Yards...................        0        0
  Touchbacks..................        0        0
  Fair catch..................        1        0
KICKOFFS-YARDS................    4-273    2-106
  Average Yards Per Kickoff...     68.2     53.0
  Net Yards Per Kickoff.......     49.0     19.0
  Touchbacks..................        1        0
Punt returns: Number-Yards-TD.   2-11-0   5-45-0
  Average Per Return..........      5.5      9.0
Kickoff returns: Number-Yds-TD   2-68-0   3-57-0
  Average Per Return..........     34.0     19.0
Interceptions: Number-Yds-TD..    2-0-0    0-0-0
Fumble Returns: Number-Yds-TD.    0-0-0    0-0-0
Miscellaneous Yards...........        0        0
Possession Time...............    28:17    31:43
  1st Quarter.................     5:55     9:05
  2nd Quarter.................     7:33     7:27
  3rd Quarter.................     4:54    10:06
  4th Quarter.................     9:55     5:05
Third-Down Conversions........  3 of 13  9 of 18
Fourth-Down Conversions.......   1 of 2   1 of 2
Red-Zone Scores-Chances.......      3-4      1-3
Sacks By: Number-Yards........     5-29     3-21
PAT Kicks.....................      3-3      2-2
Field Goals...................      1-2      0-1

[Boxer7806]

exactly.. and another middle of the pack team in Umass Dartmouth lost to WPI in 5 ot's and should of won that game... WPI  i think finished 7-3 in the LL so the top teams are not as bad as one might think... and not to mention that Bridgewater struggled at the beginning of the year and were not playing as well as they are of late...