FB: New Jersey Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Additionally, Baynard received more RB votes than Rowan's Marcelin did in determining the NJAC All-Conference teams (both were still 1st Teamers).

I don't know where that is publicly acknowledged. All I see is players listed alphabetically.

We chose seven members of the Wesley offense All-Region.

Yea, and 3 linemen which totally surprised me from what I saw all year or at least when they played stronger teams.  The O line was average at best.

Welcome to the East Region. Dynamics of All-Region are a little different in a region with the NEFC, MASCAC and ECFC.

[wesleydad]

Baynard: 1381 yds, 5.31 ypc, 17 TDs, 656 rec yards, 2 TDs.


NO.   NAME             YR   POS   GP   COMP   ATT   PCT          YDS            Y/G          Y/A       TD   INT   LG
14   Joe Callahan   Sr.   QB   13   346           496   69.8%   5063   389.5   10.2     55   12   87

Wesleydad - how does this happen with an "average at best" O-line? I will take that line!

CNU, hope all is well.  I am not a big stat guy when I can use the eye test.  When Wesley played higher caliber teams Callahan was forced to make way too many plays using his feet because the O line could not handle a good D line.  The stats are great and anyone would like them.  I want to see Wesley win the Stagg Bowl and the O line was not good enough this year.

[Bombers798891]

I want to see Wesley win the Stagg Bowl and the O line was not good enough this year.

The O line was average at best.

.

See, that's the whole problem. You guys, like UWW/MUC/Linfield/MHB/UST, are just off in your own world trying to win Stagg Bowls, and then, frankly, whenever that dream ends, you decide to wander on down to where 99% of the teams are, and you have zero perspective on how the rest of the division works.

You sit there shilling for your guy who had to make do with an "average at best" offensive line, and it never dawns on you that, your line is actually insanely good, by D-III standards. You don't have an average offensive line, because your definition of "average, at best" is based on "Are they good enough to beat Mount Union and win the Stagg Bowl?" and that's not the scale that teams like Brockport are operating on.

You know what teams that actually have "average, at best" talent at position groups are wondering? "Are we good enough to finish with a winning record? Can we possibly win our conference? Or is this going to hold us back from those goals?"

Wesley averaged 592 yards per game. Not only was that the best in the country, only two other teams were even within 50 yards of that total in all of D-III. Only a fan of a team that exists perpetually in the Top 7 would try to pretend that was possible behind an "average, at best offensive line"

[Desertraider]

I want to see Wesley win the Stagg Bowl and the O line was not good enough this year.

The O line was average at best.

.

See, that's the whole problem. You guys, like UWW/MUC/Linfield/MHB/UST, are just off in your own world trying to win Stagg Bowls, and then, frankly, whenever that dream ends, you decide to wander on down to where 99% of the teams are, and you have zero perspective on how the rest of the division works.

You sit there shilling for your guy who had to make do with an "average at best" offensive line, and it never dawns on you that, your line is actually insanely good, by D-III standards. You don't have an average offensive line, because your definition of "average, at best" is based on "Are they good enough to beat Mount Union and win the Stagg Bowl?" and that's not the scale that teams like Brockport are operating on.

You know what teams that actually have "average, at best" talent at position groups are wondering? "Are we good enough to finish with a winning record? Can we possibly win our conference? Or is this going to hold us back from those goals?"

Wesley averaged 592 yards per game. Not only was that the best in the country, only two other teams were even within 50 yards of that total in all of D-III. Only a fan of a team that exists perpetually in the Top 7 would try to pretend that was possible behind an "average, at best offensive line"

I gotta say - +k. I never actually looked at it that way.

[wesleydad]

I want to see Wesley win the Stagg Bowl and the O line was not good enough this year.

The O line was average at best.

.

See, that's the whole problem. You guys, like UWW/MUC/Linfield/MHB/UST, are just off in your own world trying to win Stagg Bowls, and then, frankly, whenever that dream ends, you decide to wander on down to where 99% of the teams are, and you have zero perspective on how the rest of the division works.

You sit there shilling for your guy who had to make do with an "average at best" offensive line, and it never dawns on you that, your line is actually insanely good, by D-III standards. You don't have an average offensive line, because your definition of "average, at best" is based on "Are they good enough to beat Mount Union and win the Stagg Bowl?" and that's not the scale that teams like Brockport are operating on.

You know what teams that actually have "average, at best" talent at position groups are wondering? "Are we good enough to finish with a winning record? Can we possibly win our conference? Or is this going to hold us back from those goals?"

Wesley averaged 592 yards per game. Not only was that the best in the country, only two other teams were even within 50 yards of that total in all of D-III. Only a fan of a team that exists perpetually in the Top 7 would try to pretend that was possible behind an "average, at best offensive line"

Yep, it is all a matter of perspective.  You have yours and I have mine.  And you are well aware that I don't wonder down anywhere.  I was on record about Wesley's offensive line long before the season ended and the yards were calculated.  I will not apologize for wanting Wesley to win the Stagg Bowl and comparing their team to the elite of the division.  Was the line good, I guess if you look at the numbers it was.  Was the line good enough, when you watched the struggles with Rowan, Salisbury, Framingham, and Mount then the answer is no it was not.  Bombers, you are passionate about D3 and the average teams and that is fine.  Just don't complain when others are comparing their team to the top of D3.  I know that Wesley's ultimate goal is to win the Stagg and that is how I will continue to judge their team.

[wesleydad]

I want to see Wesley win the Stagg Bowl and the O line was not good enough this year.

The O line was average at best.

.

See, that's the whole problem. You guys, like UWW/MUC/Linfield/MHB/UST, are just off in your own world trying to win Stagg Bowls, and then, frankly, whenever that dream ends, you decide to wander on down to where 99% of the teams are, and you have zero perspective on how the rest of the division works.

You sit there shilling for your guy who had to make do with an "average at best" offensive line, and it never dawns on you that, your line is actually insanely good, by D-III standards. You don't have an average offensive line, because your definition of "average, at best" is based on "Are they good enough to beat Mount Union and win the Stagg Bowl?" and that's not the scale that teams like Brockport are operating on.

You know what teams that actually have "average, at best" talent at position groups are wondering? "Are we good enough to finish with a winning record? Can we possibly win our conference? Or is this going to hold us back from those goals?"

Wesley averaged 592 yards per game. Not only was that the best in the country, only two other teams were even within 50 yards of that total in all of D-III. Only a fan of a team that exists perpetually in the Top 7 would try to pretend that was possible behind an "average, at best offensive line"

Yep, it is all a matter of perspective.  You have yours and I have mine.  And you are well aware that I don't wonder down anywhere.  I was on record about Wesley's offensive line long before the season ended and the yards were calculated.  I will not apologize for wanting Wesley to win the Stagg Bowl and comparing their team to the elite of the division.  Was the line good, I guess if you look at the numbers it was.  Was the line good enough, when you watched the struggles with Rowan, Salisbury, Framingham, and Mount then the answer is no it was not.  Bombers, you are passionate about D3 and the average teams and that is fine.  Just don't complain when others are comparing their team to the top of D3.  I know that Wesley's ultimate goal is to win the Stagg and that is how I will continue to judge their team.

I will also disagree with this statement in bold.  I have a very good perspective on how the rest of D3 works.  That is why I am not comparing the Wesley line to the majority of the D3 teams.  I know the line would be good for 99% of the teams.  How good I guess it depends on which team you are comparing them to.  Again, it is a matter of perspective. 

[Bombers798891]

That is why I am not comparing the Wesley line to the majority of the D3 teams.  I know the line would be good for 99% of the teams. 

Okay...but this whole conversation was centered around Baynard vs. Andrews for all-region, because some Baynard supporters were pointing out that his stats were roughly equal to Andrews, and other people are countering that Baynard had a a great offensive line around him and Andrews didn't.

So it seemed like you were saying Baynard deserved it because Wesley's line wasn't actually all that good. But it seemed odd that you were using the standard of Mount Union to argue that Wesley's RB was more deserving of an award than Brockport's RB.

But, if you're just making a general statement about Wesley's line relative to what you've come to expect, I'm sorry for misinterpreting that.

[Teamski]

Wesley averaged 592 yards per game. Not only was that the best in the country, only two other teams were even within 50 yards of that total in all of D-III. Only a fan of a team that exists perpetually in the Top 7 would try to pretend that was possible behind an "average, at best offensive line"

That was an outstanding post.  k+1

-Ski

[Bombers798891]

Wesley averaged 592 yards per game. Not only was that the best in the country, only two other teams were even within 50 yards of that total in all of D-III. Only a fan of a team that exists perpetually in the Top 7 would try to pretend that was possible behind an "average, at best offensive line"

That was an outstanding post.  k+1

-Ski

I just hope you guys know, I'm not anti-Baynard or even anti-Wesley. (I'm actually rooting for Wesley to win because I'm tired of the "The East stinks" nonsense.) I just wanted people to remember that, with all due respect to the players involved, one of these running backs had Wesley's offense around him and the other had Brockport's. And we're probably not being honest with ourselves if we can't admit that having Wesley's around you is an advantage.

I mean, I have these same debates with old Ithaca fans who try and tell me Todd Wilkowski was Ithaca's best ever QB. He might be, but it probably helped that he had the best WR in school history, one backfield with two all-americans, and one with a College football hall of famer

[HScoach]

I can only speak of Wesley against Mount, but their O-line was probably 2nd or 3rd best in the OAC.   Way better than either of the other playoff components.   The difference is the QB playing behind it.   Put your normal "good D3 QB" under center and you'd get an accurate read on the Wesley O-line.   

Callahan is a stud and makes the difference.  Much like Jim Ballard did in '92 and '93 for Mount.   An all-world QB playing behind a pretty decent o-line with really good receivers made the team a national contender.   

[PA_wesleyfan]

 I think that those of us who saw Baynard play every week know how hard he worked for a lot of his yards. All of his rushing yards came between the tackles. He does a lot of  the grunt work . Other than the games where the Offense second team played he is in almost every play.  I too think his numbers are good enough to be in the best of the best but I realize there are  a lot of teams with deserving players who are never given a thought of getting these post season awards

[wesleydad]

That is why I am not comparing the Wesley line to the majority of the D3 teams.  I know the line would be good for 99% of the teams. 

Okay...but this whole conversation was centered around Baynard vs. Andrews for all-region, because some Baynard supporters were pointing out that his stats were roughly equal to Andrews, and other people are countering that Baynard had a a great offensive line around him and Andrews didn't.

So it seemed like you were saying Baynard deserved it because Wesley's line wasn't actually all that good. But it seemed odd that you were using the standard of Mount Union to argue that Wesley's RB was more deserving of an award than Brockport's RB.

But, if you're just making a general statement about Wesley's line relative to what you've come to expect, I'm sorry for misinterpreting that.

Bombers, I was not the one calling for Baynard to be all region.  Waterboy posted stat comparisons.  I am not a stat person.  I like Baynard and was impressed by how hard he played.  All region, maybe, but I am ok with him not being on it.  Marcelin from Rowan was better from what I saw, he was limited due to injuries.  Wesley's weak spot seems to be the O line when it comes to the big boys.  No need to apologize, you are one of the best posters on this site and I enjoy reading your opinion.

[pg04]

  No need to apologize, you are one of the best posters on this site and I enjoy reading your opinion.

I concur. You and Bombers are two of my favorites. You both give good (and honest!) insight into your own teams as well as other teams that you have seen. +k for both of you.

[thewaterboy]

That is why I am not comparing the Wesley line to the majority of the D3 teams.  I know the line would be good for 99% of the teams. 

Okay...but this whole conversation was centered around Baynard vs. Andrews for all-region, because some Baynard supporters were pointing out that his stats were roughly equal to Andrews, and other people are countering that Baynard had a a great offensive line around him and Andrews didn't.

So it seemed like you were saying Baynard deserved it because Wesley's line wasn't actually all that good. But it seemed odd that you were using the standard of Mount Union to argue that Wesley's RB was more deserving of an award than Brockport's RB.

But, if you're just making a general statement about Wesley's line relative to what you've come to expect, I'm sorry for misinterpreting that.

Bombers, I was not the one calling for Baynard to be all region.  Waterboy posted stat comparisons.  I am not a stat person.  I like Baynard and was impressed by how hard he played.  All region, maybe, but I am ok with him not being on it.  Marcelin from Rowan was better from what I saw, he was limited due to injuries.  Wesley's weak spot seems to be the O line when it comes to the big boys.  No need to apologize, you are one of the best posters on this site and I enjoy reading your opinion.

Did not really mean to compare Andrews and Baynard directly. I added in the receiving comparison to add emphasis on Baynard's stat line I was trying to say more of "hey, this guy was pretty good too."

Another note: Larry Beavers signed with the Cleveland Gladiators this past week!

[Jonny Utah]

That is why I am not comparing the Wesley line to the majority of the D3 teams.  I know the line would be good for 99% of the teams. 

Okay...but this whole conversation was centered around Baynard vs. Andrews for all-region, because some Baynard supporters were pointing out that his stats were roughly equal to Andrews, and other people are countering that Baynard had a a great offensive line around him and Andrews didn't.

So it seemed like you were saying Baynard deserved it because Wesley's line wasn't actually all that good. But it seemed odd that you were using the standard of Mount Union to argue that Wesley's RB was more deserving of an award than Brockport's RB.

But, if you're just making a general statement about Wesley's line relative to what you've come to expect, I'm sorry for misinterpreting that.

Bombers, I was not the one calling for Baynard to be all region.  Waterboy posted stat comparisons.  I am not a stat person.  I like Baynard and was impressed by how hard he played.  All region, maybe, but I am ok with him not being on it.  Marcelin from Rowan was better from what I saw, he was limited due to injuries.  Wesley's weak spot seems to be the O line when it comes to the big boys.  No need to apologize, you are one of the best posters on this site and I enjoy reading your opinion.

The truth is we will never know how Wesley's oline would do on another team, but I can see where Wesleydad is coming from in a way.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wesley runs the spread all the time (unlike MTU I think), and one of the great things about the spread is that you don't need a great big traditional powerful oline, but you need smart linemen who can zoneblock.  In fact that is one of the reasons team run offesnes like that because you don't have to block everyone and speed is involved more than power. Having one of the best, if not the best,  scrambling QBs in the country adds to the equation where he can make plays despite defenders getting through the oline.

That being said, I would venture to guess that Wesley's oline is probably one of the top 20 in the country so who really knows for sure.