MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[ecreddevils]

Dennis I hate to do this again, but you get on here blowing and going and you are just as full of it as you have always been. Here is your list from the last 8 years and the truth next to the name. McCoy (MBA) yes, Fogerty yes, Storandt yes, Porter quit the team, Lundy  transfered after two years, Branch quit the team, Sheets yes, Riva quit the team, Bufford quit the team, Rapp quit the team, Dressler ( 5 year dual degree with Wash U in Engineering ) quit once but came back. Even considering it is coming from you, I can[t believe you bring up T. Lovette - this is nuts that you would list him. He got screwed so bad at FC, just ask him - and he transfered - HE DID NOT GRADUATE FROM FC.  and niether did Thomas, like you tried to lead on, he went to MO Bap.

So over the last eight years you have five players who played four years and graduated. And this from a program that was widely known for bringing new players in every year by the boatload. Go back and read your own posts every fall about "the greatest recriting class in the history of the SLIAC." Conservativly, I would guess over the last 8 years FC has had 120 to 140 players listed on their rosters either before the season or brought in at semester (remember the year that the team was 8-3 at Christmas and three new "saviors" were brought in, and two started in a game after one day of practice! I beleive that was 2003. And you are bragging about five the stayed with the program and graduated. Heck, Syracuse would even be embarrassed by those numbers!

Then you come up with this list  "Just in the last 8 (years):
Thomas, Tillett, King, Fischer, Nagel, O'Keefe, Cundiff, Scheossel, Bright, Oliver, Hoemeyer, Horton, Grasle, Robinson, Livingston, Sieges, Washington, Schmuke, Lewis, Harris, MaClin, Kapper, Aurbitnot, Hollander"........   

The only one of these names found in the last 8 years on a FC roster (I looked in the archives) are Cundiff and Aurbitnot. I don't know if they graduated are not, but these other guys were not on a FC roster in the last 8 years.

Most people who follow this board have learned about 5% of what you say is true, 45% has a lot of gray area and 50% is just down right untrue. You are still in mid season form.

The real issue here is that "graduation rates" for a DIII basketball program should not reflect AT ALL on a coach.  These are players are adults and can choose to either commit themselves to academics or not.  Resources are there for academic assistance on all of the SLIAC campuses, but the players have to take the initiative.  Remember, they're "paying to play" and solely responsible for obtaining their degrees.  Not sure exactly what your point is about all of these players who "quit the team."  The average retention rates at SLIAC institutions as a whole is 55-70%-that means 30-45% of students are leaving every year  It happens. What point are you trying to make?

[allamericanredhead]

Dennis I hate to do this again, but you get on here blowing and going and you are just as full of it as you have always been. Here is your list from the last 8 years and the truth next to the name. McCoy (MBA) yes, Fogerty yes, Storandt yes, Porter quit the team, Lundy  transfered after two years, Branch quit the team, Sheets yes, Riva quit the team, Bufford quit the team, Rapp quit the team, Dressler ( 5 year dual degree with Wash U in Engineering ) quit once but came back. Even considering it is coming from you, I can[t believe you bring up T. Lovette - this is nuts that you would list him. He got screwed so bad at FC, just ask him - and he transfered - HE DID NOT GRADUATE FROM FC.  and niether did Thomas, like you tried to lead on, he went to MO Bap.

So over the last eight years you have five players who played four years and graduated. And this from a program that was widely known for bringing new players in every year by the boatload. Go back and read your own posts every fall about "the greatest recriting class in the history of the SLIAC." Conservativly, I would guess over the last 8 years FC has had 120 to 140 players listed on their rosters either before the season or brought in at semester (remember the year that the team was 8-3 at Christmas and three new "saviors" were brought in, and two started in a game after one day of practice! I beleive that was 2003. And you are bragging about five the stayed with the program and graduated. Heck, Syracuse would even be embarrassed by those numbers!

Then you come up with this list  "Just in the last 8 (years):
Thomas, Tillett, King, Fischer, Nagel, O'Keefe, Cundiff, Scheossel, Bright, Oliver, Hoemeyer, Horton, Grasle, Robinson, Livingston, Sieges, Washington, Schmuke, Lewis, Harris, MaClin, Kapper, Aurbitnot, Hollander"........   

The only one of these names found in the last 8 years on a FC roster (I looked in the archives) are Cundiff and Aurbitnot. I don't know if they graduated are not, but these other guys were not on a FC roster in the last 8 years.

Most people who follow this board have learned about 5% of what you say is true, 45% has a lot of gray area and 50% is just down right untrue. You are still in mid season form.

The real issue here is that "graduation rates" for a DIII basketball program should not reflect AT ALL on a coach.  These are players are adults and can choose to either commit themselves to academics or not.  Resources are there for academic assistance on all of the SLIAC campuses, but the players have to take the initiative.  Remember, they're "paying to play" and solely responsible for obtaining their degrees.  Not sure exactly what your point is about all of these players who "quit the team."  The average retention rates at SLIAC institutions as a whole is 55-70%-that means 30-45% of students are leaving every year  It happens. What point are you trying to make?

The point is simple: this list of Dennis'; as should have been expected; is total BS - in some cases misleading and in some cases totally false. And I disagree that a coach who brings these kids in, makes promises to them and their parents; has no responsiblity to their staying and graduating. The expected scenerio each of these kids and their parents had when they sign on some place like FC, is that their child will enjoy a four year career as a player and leave with a degree. Granted that is best case scenerio; but it seems it only happened with five players (based on Dennis' list) at FC over the last seven years (2004-2011). FIVE TIMES. It was not the feel good Father Flannigan type story Dennis likes to tell.

[Gregory Sager]

I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding a head coach's responsibility for his program's graduation rate. Of course, the primary responsibility rests upon the student-athlete him- or herself; ecreddevils is exactly right when he says that a college student is an adult and should therefore bear the burden of showing up for classes, completing assignments, studying for tests, and fulfilling all the requirements that eventually lead to a bachelor's degree. But the head coach is a part of that equation as well, because the burden of recruiting the right kind of student-athlete falls upon the coach. Even if we're talking about an assistant coach doing all the legwork and all the background checks on a student-athlete, the assistant coach answers to the head coach, and the head coach bears the ultimate accountability for the performance and behavior of the players in his or her program. If you're a coach who is rolling the dice on a lot of players who come from iffy academic backgrounds or who have a history of not shouldering their responsibilities in or out of the classroom, and your program's graduation rates suffer as a result, you as a coach will answer for that to somebody, probably the AD or a vice-president or the school's president.

Of course, this is D3 we're talking about. D3 is a different beast than the scholarship levels with regard to this issue, because in D1 and D2 the school is giving scholarships to student-athletes who thus bear a dual commitment to: a) fulfill their responsibilities to the basketball program; and b) fulfill their responsibilities to the school by maintaining academic status (and eventually graduating). The fact that D1s are so frequently bad at this is another topic for another day. Our concern is D3, and in D3 a player is not tied to his or her program; he or she can leave it at will, and that changes matters somewhat. Does a D3 head coach get credit for recruiting a student-athlete who ends up graduating from that school but who leaves the program at some point and becomes a mere student?

[Denny McKinney]

Dennis I hate to do this again, but you get on here blowing and going and you are just as full of it as you have always been. Here is your list from the last 8 years and the truth next to the name. McCoy (MBA) yes, Fogerty yes, Storandt yes, Porter quit the team, Lundy  transfered after two years, Branch quit the team, Sheets yes, Riva quit the team, Bufford quit the team, Rapp quit the team, Dressler ( 5 year dual degree with Wash U in Engineering ) quit once but came back. Even considering it is coming from you, I can[t believe you bring up T. Lovette - this is nuts that you would list him. He got screwed so bad at FC, just ask him - and he transfered - HE DID NOT GRADUATE FROM FC.  and niether did Thomas, like you tried to lead on, he went to MO Bap.

So over the last eight years you have five players who played four years and graduated. And this from a program that was widely known for bringing new players in every year by the boatload. Go back and read your own posts every fall about "the greatest recriting class in the history of the SLIAC." Conservativly, I would guess over the last 8 years FC has had 120 to 140 players listed on their rosters either before the season or brought in at semester (remember the year that the team was 8-3 at Christmas and three new "saviors" were brought in, and two started in a game after one day of practice! I beleive that was 2003. And you are bragging about five the stayed with the program and graduated. Heck, Syracuse would even be embarrassed by those numbers!(/quote)

Then you come up with this list  "Just in the last 8 (years):
Thomas, Tillett, King, Fischer, Nagel, O'Keefe, Cundiff, Scheossel, Bright, Oliver, Hoemeyer, Horton, Grasle, Robinson, Livingston, Sieges, Washington, Schmuke, Lewis, Harris, MaClin, Kapper, Aurbitnot, Hollander"........   

The only one of these names found in the last 8 years on a FC roster (I looked in the archives) are Cundiff and Aurbitnot. I don't know if they graduated are not, but these other guys were not on a FC roster in the last 8 years.

Most people who follow this board have learned about 5% of what you say is true, 45% has a lot of gray area and 50% is just down right untrue. You are still in mid season form.

Wow. Hear we go again. Did you enjoy your Picture. You did not mention Fred or Lu in your list of grads. That was a Good Picture I can't believe you didn't mention it. Along with Fournie, Forrest and Melloway. That's 5 more grads with the 9 above thats 14 in Dad's last 4 years.

Quit the team: You were there for Bufford's Senior Nite game. Porter and Rapp, never quit the team they chose different prorities and didn't play all four, but graduated. Dressler never quit and he sat out a year while Pops found out the elgibility of Dual Student. Return the next and was on a NCAA Tourney team. Lundy, I stand corrected. Mitch was a roomate with Porter and McCoy. He did tranfer to Bolivar for baseball. He's now coaching BBall back in Salem. All these recruits graduated. Branch and Riva may not of finished their careers for there reasons but were recruits that graduated.

FC needs to be called on this. Very few of their players over the years have graduated.

That's your point isn't it.

I don't know where you found archived rosters. Not FU site. In checking All - Conference Teams on the SLIAC site. '03-'04 were Grasle, Aurtbinot and Horton's team. (I know you know who Mike Horton is Lafeyette Grad. Black student asst. for Pops.) '02 -'03 was final year of the starting 5 of Thomas (also Grad Asst), King, Fischer, Tillet and Nagel. If I remember right Scheossel, Cundiff, Holdmeyer, Kapper, Hollander and Oliver played with that starting five also. So that's 14 more. And I didn't find rosters to give you Grad years on the rest. Plus the nine above. That's 23 graduates at least. How many do you expect a year? Most of the Senior Nite Games around the league I've seen 3 is probably the norm.

I can[t believe you bring up T. Lovette - this is nuts that you would list him. He got screwed so bad at FC, just ask him - and he transfered - HE DID NOT GRADUATE FROM FC.  and niether did Thomas, like you tried to lead on, he went to MO Bap.

HE DID NOT TRANSFER. But tried. Coach Bunch passed and he didn't have time attend enough church to transfer to Prin. And, I have no idea about getting screwed so Bad. There weren't a lot of places available to play, when he came to FU at the age of 30. I did speak to him. He was in the weight room at FU every day while practice was going on '10-'11. I asked what he was doing and was told taking a few classes. Having been there that long I was sure he had Grad by then. My Bad on T. Love.

The rest on the list of 40+ you can check in the Alumni Office. You do know your way around campus. Or, I can ask on Facebook if each can email you a copy of their diploma. Your choice.

Let's cut to that burr in your chaps. By name Kevin Roberts, Josh Helbig, Antonio Holland and Kenard Davis. Kevin came home from D1 SEMO to play his last semester with his sister. Maureen was on the good Lady Griffin run from 2000-04. He returned to SEMO the following year as a Grad Asst and now head coach at Cape Notre Dame. Josh became a Dad before his Senior year and worked while graduting from FU the next year. Kennard played a year and semester. Was SLIAC All Conference before being purged by the university for financial reasons at semester break his senior year. Holland played one year was All Conference and left to try the NBA ? Now which one of those situations really bothers you. Or, is it as I expected when I saw your email address when sending you the picture, Glory Days are hard on ya. Makes you cynical.

ECreddevils Red understands retention. And there were alot of players who saw the writing on the wall, but stayed at FU after basketball to graduate.

And I never indicated Thomas graduated from FU. MoBapt was a better financial fit to finish his degree. In Behavorial Science and Education and is coaching a 7th grade team at Missouri Sports Complex. Him, Freddie and Ray Woods just got back from a trip to see our friend in Belgium. They played on his All Star team and played games against pro teams in Belgium and Holland. They had a great trip.

So, now that those have been explained and have shown FU graduates as many players as any other school in the conference. I guess it's about time you tweezer that burr out. And you can continue to get false information from JV players, or whoever your talking to. Basketball is a game with 15 on a squad and only 5 can play. Players not staying four years or Juco Transfers really has got to you. It's just basketball.

[Denny McKinney]

Mr. Sager is correct about a coach's responsibilities to student and parents. And, I would think a recruit chose that school origonally for bball and school. Would that young man be graduating from that institution if not recruited. Dad was proud of all that graduated. That was more important then the wins. If checked properly FU has done quite well on retention. And graduating transfers. Even though some do not recognize transfers who graduate as being players. FU had few academic problems over the years. Parker and Jett are 2 that come to mind in recent years. And, Jett had a 30 act score in his resume.

[Denny McKinney]

Redhead you'll never know how good it felt when all of Dad's boys were there for the Celebration of Life at his wake. There were 300 carnations for former players to sign and leave by Dad. We ran out. Don't know about Father Flannigan. But, the Fontbonne Family is large and very successful and tight. In the end it was a feel good story. This is the end of my discussion on my Father. And, this all started by me recognizing two of his boys that did graduate 2 saturday's ago and kept there promise to him. Jahmal will complete his soon. Guys I know he's proud of you and so am I.

[allamericanredhead]

I stand by my numbers, and if anyone would cut through all of your bs, they see you are confirming what I said.

From 2005 to 2012, FC had five players who played four years of ball at FC and graduated. That is five in nine  years: McCoy, Fogerty, Storandt, Sheets and Dressler. And it took a full year for the AD to determine if Dressler was eligable? That should have taken 10 minutes. Dressler was fed up with the total lack of loyalty in the whole program which is why he didn't play his senior year. Talk to his family. I have. But I am still giving you him. That is five in nine years. Once again, do you have any other four year players that graduated between 2005 to 2012? If not (and you don't, if someone takes the time to read through your pages of bs, that is obvious you have added no names to the above five that fit the criteria of a successful D3 career: play four years and graduate), then I have made my points based on cold facts.

[allamericanredhead]

And by the way, if you check the acrchives, Kenard Davis only played one semester at FC, not a year and a half as you state.

[allamericanredhead]

I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding a head coach's responsibility for his program's graduation rate. Of course, the primary responsibility rests upon the student-athlete him- or herself; ecreddevils is exactly right when he says that a college student is an adult and should therefore bear the burden of showing up for classes, completing assignments, studying for tests, and fulfilling all the requirements that eventually lead to a bachelor's degree. But the head coach is a part of that equation as well, because the burden of recruiting the right kind of student-athlete falls upon the coach. Even if we're talking about an assistant coach doing all the legwork and all the background checks on a student-athlete, the assistant coach answers to the head coach, and the head coach bears the ultimate accountability for the performance and behavior of the players in his or her program. If you're a coach who is rolling the dice on a lot of players who come from iffy academic backgrounds or who have a history of not shouldering their responsibilities in or out of the classroom, and your program's graduation rates suffer as a result, you as a coach will answer for that to somebody, probably the AD or a vice-president or the school's president.

Of course, this is D3 we're talking about. D3 is a different beast than the scholarship levels with regard to this issue, because in D1 and D2 the school is giving scholarships to student-athletes who thus bear a dual commitment to: a) fulfill their responsibilities to the basketball program; and b) fulfill their responsibilities to the school by maintaining academic status (and eventually graduating). The fact that D1s are so frequently bad at this is another topic for another day. Our concern is D3, and in D3 a player is not tied to his or her program; he or she can leave it at will, and that changes matters somewhat. Does a D3 head coach get credit for recruiting a student-athlete who ends up graduating from that school but who leaves the program at some point and becomes a mere student?

You make some good balanced points. But I still say that five four year players who graduate in a nine year span is very low.

[Gregory Sager]

I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding a head coach's responsibility for his program's graduation rate. Of course, the primary responsibility rests upon the student-athlete him- or herself; ecreddevils is exactly right when he says that a college student is an adult and should therefore bear the burden of showing up for classes, completing assignments, studying for tests, and fulfilling all the requirements that eventually lead to a bachelor's degree. But the head coach is a part of that equation as well, because the burden of recruiting the right kind of student-athlete falls upon the coach. Even if we're talking about an assistant coach doing all the legwork and all the background checks on a student-athlete, the assistant coach answers to the head coach, and the head coach bears the ultimate accountability for the performance and behavior of the players in his or her program. If you're a coach who is rolling the dice on a lot of players who come from iffy academic backgrounds or who have a history of not shouldering their responsibilities in or out of the classroom, and your program's graduation rates suffer as a result, you as a coach will answer for that to somebody, probably the AD or a vice-president or the school's president.

Of course, this is D3 we're talking about. D3 is a different beast than the scholarship levels with regard to this issue, because in D1 and D2 the school is giving scholarships to student-athletes who thus bear a dual commitment to: a) fulfill their responsibilities to the basketball program; and b) fulfill their responsibilities to the school by maintaining academic status (and eventually graduating). The fact that D1s are so frequently bad at this is another topic for another day. Our concern is D3, and in D3 a player is not tied to his or her program; he or she can leave it at will, and that changes matters somewhat. Does a D3 head coach get credit for recruiting a student-athlete who ends up graduating from that school but who leaves the program at some point and becomes a mere student?

You make some good balanced points. But I still say that five four year players who graduate in a nine year span is very low.

I agree. But I disagree with you on this:

you have added no names to the above five that fit the criteria of a successful D3 career: play four years and graduate

I object to your notion that the criteria for a successful D3 career require four years of schooling at the same institution. Transfers are not lepers, Redhead. They can be, and often are, leaders of their respective teams as well as outstanding students. Please don't make them out to be second-class citizens.

[allamericanredhead]

Transfers or what they are and all programs have them. However, lets say that Fontbonne brought in 10 new players a year on the average between 2004 and 2012, and we know that number is low, do you think the parents of freshman recruits were told "based on what has happened over the last nine years, your son has a one in 20 chance of playing four years here and graduating." I doubt it.

I am not down on transfers, but I am just saying five in nine years is very low and indicates that a lot of kids were talked into spending a lot of money to go there by the painting of a picture of success that for all too many didn't happen.

[Gregory Sager]

Bringing transfers into the equation and then downgrading their worth by saying, "the criteria of a successful D3 career: play four years and graduate," doesn't help your case against Fontbonne with regard to four-year graduates, Redhead. All it does is make transfers out to be second-class citizens.

[allamericanredhead]

I doubt any kid out of high schgool signs somewhere thinking,"in a year or two I will transfer."  The ideal is to go to one school, play for four years and graduate from that school. Happens all the time in the top DIII programs.

The exception would be JUCO. High level JUCO is full of kids with baggage or their talent would have them in Lexington, KY instead of Garden City, KS. The nature of Division III, in my opinion, does not blend well with the JUCO mentality; and as I said above, a kid would be a full to enroll at a DIII school as a true freshman with his or her goal being to transfer.

To me, it is a lot like marriage. You would have to be a fool to get married with the intent of getting divorced. But it does happen and people move on; just like kids make mistakes and end up transfering; BUT IT IS NOT THE IDEAL. I will stick to my statement that the ideal on the DIII level is to go to one school, play for four years and graduate. I seriously doubt few if any DIII schools in the nation have as sad a rate as FC does in this area. Five in 9 years is a disgrace.

Most of Fontbonne's transfers were "men" in their mid 20's right off the street. They were brought in for one reason only; to try and win a few games right now and most didn't stay around long.

[Denny McKinney]

I had to ask for help. 05-12 is 8 years. But, add to your 5 these players that fit your criteria. Cundiff and Holdmier (both from Borgia), Kaemmer, Livingston, Bufford and Yoshioka to your list. I didn't count Andy Mraz who I believe falls in there. Next year you have four year Seniors Curtis, Hamilton, Reese, Zoellner and Lisch. All of them recruited by Dad.

I'm glad you talked to the Dressler family. I had many a discussion with John's Mom about his playing time. Unhappy parents are the norm. John did play his 4th year. John played a valuable role. I don't know what you mean by program loyalty. But, there were not a lot of minutes with Fogerty and Storandt playing 35 minutes.

Your decision not to include transfers as successful is a little Elitest on your part. Nothing is said about all the transfers at other conference schools. If you eliminate them your missing a valuable resource. Fournie, Forrest, Melloway and the two you refuse to recognize (Fleming and Dioum) where great youngmen.

DIII is not the place where you see a lot of 4 yr JV / Practice Squad players. If a player doesn't match up to the competition, they usually just go on and get there degree. You can't play a guy just cause he's been there 2 or 3 yrs. This isn't CYC. And, I'm not sure how many schools have a "NO Cut, walk on participation rule". There were a ton of students who were never recruited but appear on a roster. Most realize early on why they weren't recruited. But, never was a player cut.

[allamericanredhead]

I had to ask for help. 05-12 is 8 years. But, add to your 5 these players that fit your criteria. Cundiff and Holdmier (both from Borgia), Kaemmer, Livingston, Bufford and Yoshioka to your list. I didn't count Andy Mraz who I believe falls in there. Next year you have four year Seniors Curtis, Hamilton, Reese, Zoellner and Lisch. All of them recruited by Dad.

I'm glad you talked to the Dressler family. I had many a discussion with John's Mom about his playing time. Unhappy parents are the norm. John did play his 4th year. John played a valuable role. I don't know what you mean by program loyalty. But, there were not a lot of minutes with Fogerty and Storandt playing 35 minutes.

Your decision not to include transfers as successful is a little Elitest on your part. Nothing is said about all the transfers at other conference schools. If you eliminate them your missing a valuable resource. Fournie, Forrest, Melloway and the two you refuse to recognize (Fleming and Dioum) where great youngmen.

DIII is not the place where you see a lot of 4 yr JV / Practice Squad players. If a player doesn't match up to the competition, they usually just go on and get there degree. You can't play a guy just cause he's been there 2 or 3 yrs. This isn't CYC. And, I'm not sure how many schools have a "NO Cut, walk on participation rule". There were a ton of students who were never recruited but appear on a roster. Most realize early on why they weren't recruited. But, never was a player cut.

Livingston never graduated from FC. I know that for a fact from talking to him. Bufford and Yoshioka never played four years. Cundiff was 04. Holdmier I will give you.

Just exactly was your role at FC? I have heard lots of stories, so set the record straight. Where have you coached and where are you coaching now? I am done now. I have something called "a job" I must attend to.