MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Denny McKinney]

Cundiff, Blake  Sr.  2004-05  F  6-2  22  24  68  0.353  2  8  0.250  14  29  0.483  57  2.591  30  1.364  2  0.091  21  0.955  64  2.909. That does say 2004-05. From NCAA website. And, yes Bufford and Yo both played four years counting JV years. As did Mike Kaemmer. Or now do we have to play Varsity minutes for four years to have a successful D3 experience?

Why don't you share your resume with us. My life has been spent in the public eye. Where were you from 96 - 03? I was employed by Fontbonne. That's right you weren't around yet.

[ecreddevils]

I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding a head coach's responsibility for his program's graduation rate. Of course, the primary responsibility rests upon the student-athlete him- or herself; ecreddevils is exactly right when he says that a college student is an adult and should therefore bear the burden of showing up for classes, completing assignments, studying for tests, and fulfilling all the requirements that eventually lead to a bachelor's degree. But the head coach is a part of that equation as well, because the burden of recruiting the right kind of student-athlete falls upon the coach. Even if we're talking about an assistant coach doing all the legwork and all the background checks on a student-athlete, the assistant coach answers to the head coach, and the head coach bears the ultimate accountability for the performance and behavior of the players in his or her program. If you're a coach who is rolling the dice on a lot of players who come from iffy academic backgrounds or who have a history of not shouldering their responsibilities in or out of the classroom, and your program's graduation rates suffer as a result, you as a coach will answer for that to somebody, probably the AD or a vice-president or the school's president.

Of course, this is D3 we're talking about. D3 is a different beast than the scholarship levels with regard to this issue, because in D1 and D2 the school is giving scholarships to student-athletes who thus bear a dual commitment to: a) fulfill their responsibilities to the basketball program; and b) fulfill their responsibilities to the school by maintaining academic status (and eventually graduating). The fact that D1s are so frequently bad at this is another topic for another day. Our concern is D3, and in D3 a player is not tied to his or her program; he or she can leave it at will, and that changes matters somewhat. Does a D3 head coach get credit for recruiting a student-athlete who ends up graduating from that school but who leaves the program at some point and becomes a mere student?

It's a good post, but you're last paragraph really hits on it.  The differences between D1 and D3 are massive, particularly at institutions like those in the SLIAC, which are good schools, but let's face it, are not top level liberal arts institutions like Williams or Grinnell or even Illinois Wesleyan, where retention rates are routinely in the 90%s because they have the luxury of being more selective.  I really believe that at a D3 institution an athletic coach is there to mentor, yes, but other than that their academic responsibilities are ancillary to faculty and support staff.

I have no idea if coaches "promise" a degree in four years, but if they do, that's a specious promise.  What they should be promising is a chance at a degree and the opportunity to play at the college level, period.  Beyond perhaps enforcing mandatory study tables and either AD or sport-specific gpa requirements, there is little a coach can do at this level to get a student-athlete to graduation.  They can encourage, certainly, but these kids can come and go, and they must choose to make the commitment to their studies--some do, many do not.  When you have an institution where the minimum gpa for admission is 16 or 18 or even 20, the fact is that many of your students are going to be mid-range or even marginal in terms of academic ability (athletes obviously included) and many will drop out, transfer, or drift from their sport.  Many will not graduate (persistence rates from yr. 1 to graduation in this conference for general student populations are around 50% or even less).  This is simply the reality of the SLIAC and D3 sports at this level.  So, in the final analysis, yes, coaches can play a role, and good coaches recognize that academic standards for their athletes are a large part of their charge, but, in my opinion, to lay the responsibility for graduation rates at the foot of a coach at these types of institutions simply isn't realistic.  There are too many other variables.

[allamericanredhead]

Cundiff, Blake  Sr.  2004-05  F  6-2  22  24  68  0.353  2  8  0.250  14  29  0.483  57  2.591  30  1.364  2  0.091  21  0.955  64  2.909. That does say 2004-05. From NCAA website. And, yes Bufford and Yo both played four years counting JV years. As did Mike Kaemmer. Or now do we have to play Varsity minutes for four years to have a successful D3 experience?

Why don't you share your resume with us. My life has been spent in the public eye. Where were you from 96 - 03? I was employed by Fontbonne. That's right you weren't around yet.

I have been around FC since the "begining." I have been around St. Louis Basketball longer than you have been alive. Let me guess, all of your coaching "experience" has been as an Assistant at either Mo Baptist or FC? I am done with this. I have made my point. Back to "life."

[Denny McKinney]

Dennis: at what graduation ceremony were you in attendance? I saw niether of those two at the one I attended, nor were they listed in the program. I hope you are right because one of my bones with the recent FC program was the revoling door of players brought in each year, even at semester, and few seemed to be there with any intent of every graduating and few ever did. Hoping I am wrong and this is not just another "spin" on everything Fontbonne.

Sir. Your point was that Fleming and Dioum didn't graduate. And, now you know they did. The rest of the time "WE" wasted was on far deeper level. At this point in time I perfer to agree to disagree. I understand your resentment towards my father and myself. I have made myself an easy target on this site. Your passionate in your side and I'm passionate about my Father's legacy. I agree there is a lot of "life" left. And we both have better things to do. Basketball is passionate. And, I have no problem in letting this be put to bed.

I hope you keep enjoying the game. FC has a large recruiting class coming in and I'm sure it will be fun for all to watch this grow. I salute you on this Memorial Day and have layed down my sword. Watch the heat and I hope you enjoy time with yours.

[Gregory Sager]

I doubt any kid out of high schgool signs somewhere thinking,"in a year or two I will transfer."  The ideal is to go to one school, play for four years and graduate from that school. Happens all the time in the top DIII programs.

I agree, but there's a big difference between what you said above and stating that a transfer is not capable of "a successful D3 career." Finishing at the same school at which you started is the ideal, given the economic ability to do so, but that does not preclude a transfer from being "successful," by any definition of the term.

The exception would be JUCO. High level JUCO is full of kids with baggage or their talent would have them in Lexington, KY instead of Garden City, KS. The nature of Division III, in my opinion, does not blend well with the JUCO mentality; and as I said above, a kid would be a full to enroll at a DIII school as a true freshman with his or her goal being to transfer.

You're out of date on this one, Redhead. A lot of kids are attending jucos these days for economic reasons, not because of "baggage" (academic or otherwise). Private colleges and universities are so prohibitively expensive now that an increasing number of students are opting to spend a year or two at a juco in order to save money, either to make their eventual degree from a four-year school more affordable up front or to lessen the burden of being saddled with a decade or two of student-loan bills that need to be paid off.

Also, a number of basketball players choose to go the juco route not because they carry any "baggage," but because their aspirations include a basketball scholarship at a four-year school, or a better four-year basketball scholarship than the ones they were offered as high-school seniors. If and when these students lower their on-the-court expectations and enter D3 programs as sophomores or juniors, they don't deserve to be stigmatized as having "baggage." All that they're guilty of is, at worst, a bit of naivete or ego regarding their own worth as ballplayers when they were seventeen or eighteen years old. And that's not "baggage" at all.

To me, it is a lot like marriage. You would have to be a fool to get married with the intent of getting divorced. But it does happen and people move on; just like kids make mistakes and end up transfering; BUT IT IS NOT THE IDEAL. I will stick to my statement that the ideal on the DIII level is to go to one school, play for four years and graduate.

No, your original statement used the word "successful," not the word "ideal," and I insist that you were wrong to use that term.

Your divorce analogy is inapt. As I said, there are completely benign reasons why some student-athletes attend jucos prior to transferring to a four-year school. Even within four-year schools, there are occasions when the analogy of a divorce -- which carries a connotation of blame, or at least regret -- doesn't fit. What about when Birmingham Southern and Centenary transitioned from D1 to D3? Those kids who were on scholarship at those schools certainly had the right to still consider themselves D1 players, and to transfer to other D1 schools accordingly, without any sort of blame being placed upon them for institutional circumstances over which they had absolutely no control. Same goes for players at schools that are transitioning in the opposite direction (e.g., Lake Erie, Chowan, and Lincoln moving to D2).

I seriously doubt few if any DIII schools in the nation have as sad a rate as FC does in this area. Five in 9 years is a disgrace.

Most of Fontbonne's transfers were "men" in their mid 20's right off the street. They were brought in for one reason only; to try and win a few games right now and most didn't stay around long.

I'm staying out of the specifically Fontbonne aspect of this discussion. I just don't know enough about the situation as it was at Fontbonne under Lee McKinney to comment upon it. This is between you and Denny.

I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding a head coach's responsibility for his program's graduation rate. Of course, the primary responsibility rests upon the student-athlete him- or herself; ecreddevils is exactly right when he says that a college student is an adult and should therefore bear the burden of showing up for classes, completing assignments, studying for tests, and fulfilling all the requirements that eventually lead to a bachelor's degree. But the head coach is a part of that equation as well, because the burden of recruiting the right kind of student-athlete falls upon the coach. Even if we're talking about an assistant coach doing all the legwork and all the background checks on a student-athlete, the assistant coach answers to the head coach, and the head coach bears the ultimate accountability for the performance and behavior of the players in his or her program. If you're a coach who is rolling the dice on a lot of players who come from iffy academic backgrounds or who have a history of not shouldering their responsibilities in or out of the classroom, and your program's graduation rates suffer as a result, you as a coach will answer for that to somebody, probably the AD or a vice-president or the school's president.

Of course, this is D3 we're talking about. D3 is a different beast than the scholarship levels with regard to this issue, because in D1 and D2 the school is giving scholarships to student-athletes who thus bear a dual commitment to: a) fulfill their responsibilities to the basketball program; and b) fulfill their responsibilities to the school by maintaining academic status (and eventually graduating). The fact that D1s are so frequently bad at this is another topic for another day. Our concern is D3, and in D3 a player is not tied to his or her program; he or she can leave it at will, and that changes matters somewhat. Does a D3 head coach get credit for recruiting a student-athlete who ends up graduating from that school but who leaves the program at some point and becomes a mere student?

It's a good post, but you're last paragraph really hits on it.  The differences between D1 and D3 are massive, particularly at institutions like those in the SLIAC, which are good schools, but let's face it, are not top level liberal arts institutions like Williams or Grinnell or even Illinois Wesleyan, where retention rates are routinely in the 90%s because they have the luxury of being more selective.  I really believe that at a D3 institution an athletic coach is there to mentor, yes, but other than that their academic responsibilities are ancillary to faculty and support staff.

I have no idea if coaches "promise" a degree in four years, but if they do, that's a specious promise.

I'll say this much: Eureka may not be as selective as Williams or Grinnell or Illinois Wesleyan, but I've never seen an alumnus or alumna of those schools use "ancillary" and "specious" in a d3boards.com post, let alone use them properly. Score two for the Red Devils!

What they should be promising is a chance at a degree and the opportunity to play at the college level, period.  Beyond perhaps enforcing mandatory study tables and either AD or sport-specific gpa requirements, there is little a coach can do at this level to get a student-athlete to graduation.  They can encourage, certainly, but these kids can come and go, and they must choose to make the commitment to their studies--some do, many do not.  When you have an institution where the minimum gpa for admission is 16 or 18 or even 20, the fact is that many of your students are going to be mid-range or even marginal in terms of academic ability (athletes obviously included) and many will drop out, transfer, or drift from their sport.  Many will not graduate (persistence rates from yr. 1 to graduation in this conference for general student populations are around 50% or even less).  This is simply the reality of the SLIAC and D3 sports at this level.  So, in the final analysis, yes, coaches can play a role, and good coaches recognize that academic standards for their athletes are a large part of their charge, but, in my opinion, to lay the responsibility for graduation rates at the foot of a coach at these types of institutions simply isn't realistic.  There are too many other variables.

I still think that D3 coaches do, and should, bear some accountability for graduation rates, even at SLIAC-type schools that are less academically selective than the D3 privates norm and that are thus more prone to recruit student-athletes that are more marginal in terms of their classroom abilities. The difference is that the coaches at SLIAC-type schools should be held to standards that are different than those of coaches at more selective D3 institutions. Coach Schafer at Fontbonne and Coach Bunch at Webster should still be expected to have a reasonable number of their recruits eventually graduate (whether they're still playing basketball as seniors or not), but their graduation rates shouldn't be expected to be as high as that of Mark Edwards at highly-selective Wash U. It's only fair to them to hold them to different standards.

Dennis: at what graduation ceremony were you in attendance? I saw niether of those two at the one I attended, nor were they listed in the program. I hope you are right because one of my bones with the recent FC program was the revoling door of players brought in each year, even at semester, and few seemed to be there with any intent of every graduating and few ever did. Hoping I am wrong and this is not just another "spin" on everything Fontbonne.

Sir.

The Redhead is not a "sir," Denny, she's a "ma'am."

[AndOne]

I have read the previous several posts dealing with recruitment, a coach's responsibility for academic success, and graduation rates with much interest. Let me say I have no connection whatsoever with any individual or school in the SLIAC. Furthermore, I believe my comments are applicable to most, if not all, D3 institutions. I did graduate from a D3 institution, and did play basketball. While I was technically classified as a "student-athlete," while in school, I was neither anywhere near the top of the class either as a student or an athlete. Lastly, my comments come from 8 years of experience of very close and continuing association with both a D3 coaching staff, and with the current and past members of a D3 basketball squad. Here are some of the things I think are pertinent, and which may not have been addressed.

* I fully agree that the primary responsibility for academic success lies with the student-athlete. Athletics, with practice time and meetings, take a lot of time. The student needs to learn how to budget that time to allot enough time to successfully complete his/her studies.
And, naturally, the student needs to regularly attend classes/labs, complete assignments on time, study for tests, and complete whatever degree requirements the school imposes.
* I do have a problem with the phrase "recruit the right kind of student." Consider that the school, NOT the coach, largely determines what the "right kind" of student is by what admission standards they set. If a recruit does not have the minimum GPA, or ACT score that the school requires, its really out of the coach's hands. Conversely, if a kid meets the school's academic admission requirements, the "right kind" of recruit effectively becomes a social, and to some degree an economic question. At that point, a coach is basically incompetent if he doesn't pursue the recruit. The trick in determining the "right kind" of recruit is the coach then doing due diligence in his "investigation" into the recruit's background and motivation. He naturally needs to talk to the kid's HS coach regarding a kid's attitude as to exactly how he approaches his classwork. Has he been suspended for academic reasons? From a social standpoint, does he play well with others OFF the court? Is he well regarded by both his teammates and other students and organizations within his school? How does he treat his team manager---as a slave or an associate? Additionally, is the kid "coachable"? Does he respond to or fight instruction? Does he WANT to become a better player, and is he willing to work on the weaker points of his game? Does he embrace or distain the weight room?
* One ingredient in the recruitment process that may sometimes be overlooked is the recruit's  family. I think its important to get to know them. Do they favor letting the kid make his own decision or or they pushing him toward a certain school? Do they understand their kid does make mistakes, or is it always another kid's fault? Does the kid play because of his love for the game or the parents need to live vicariously through their son? Are the parents always asking about playing time or is their primary concern what is the coach and school going to do to help their son/daughter be successful in the classroom? Also, what's the "feel" as to the family economic condition? Does it appear the parent's employment status/position(s) would likely enable them make up the difference between the school's financial "package" and the tuition/room & board over the 4 years experience?     
* Once a kid is admitted and becomes a member of the team, the coach can certainly be faulted if the only contact/concern he has for the player is basketball related. However, if you have a coach who makes it known that his door is always open for both basketball AND academic or social questions/issues, I think you have a coach who has taken the 1st step in fulfilling the academic (and social) success of the player. Beyond that, does the coach emphasize taking care of classwork and getting help if necessary on a regular basis at some point in practice? If the school has a policy of required study tables, and working with tutors depending on a player's standing in any particular class, does the coach check attendance and current grades regularly? Does touch base with a player's professor(s) as necessary? If the school has faculty mentors for the particular sport, does the coach involve them, encourage the players to interact with them, and regularly consult with them?
* Lastly, if you are a parent of a student-athlete or if you are a fan concerned with the non athletic aspect of an athlete's or team's performance, ask yourself what YOU could do that the coach didn't. Would you be knocking on the dorm room door at 7:30 AM to make sure the kid was up? Would you have the time (not to mention the desire to become a real pest to a professor) to be checking on every assignment in a particular class/classes throughout the term? And, what could YOU have done to prevent that kid from attending that off campus party and getting busted for underage drinking? Finally, think back to your college experience. Even if your coach addressed it, did YOU do what he encouraged you to in every circumstance? Did YOU ever do something you knew you shouldn't, OR not do something you really needed to, because it was cool and/or fun? If so, ask yourself what your coach could have done to prevent it. I'll bet the answer is "nothing."
* As it was in the beginning, and shall always be, the coach definitely has some responsibility for academic success. BUT, the primary responsibility has ALWAYS been that of the student-athlete, and so shall it continue to be.
     

[Gregory Sager]

Good post, Mark.

[jaybird44]

I think this Biblical passage is apropos, as a hopeful end to this venomous thread and dispute:

"Judge not, that you be not judged.  For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

--Matthew 7:1 and 7:2, New King James Version of The Bible

[hopefan]

Happened to review Greenville's recruiting page.... last time I looked, there were 5 or 6 names and writeups... 

YIKES... it has grown BIGGER!!!......    11 incoming now, including 5 out of the JC ranks, (all out of state) and 6 frosh, each with very good credentials.....  I would think Greenville would be perfect for JC'rs far from home, with the friendly small town atmosphere and lots of attention and help available as they transition....  Very excited to see all these guys added to the the underclassmen returning... Greenville took a tremendous hit on graduating seniors this past year... this recruiting success is just what was necessary to keep them competitive this year rather than falling into the rebuilding mode....

As for Westmin, BC, Webster, Eureka, I'm simply out of the loop....

[ecreddevils]

Happened to review Greenville's recruiting page.... last time I looked, there were 5 or 6 names and writeups... 

YIKES... it has grown BIGGER!!!......    11 incoming now, including 5 out of the JC ranks, (all out of state) and 6 frosh, each with very good credentials.....  I would think Greenville would be perfect for JC'rs far from home, with the friendly small town atmosphere and lots of attention and help available as they transition....  Very excited to see all these guys added to the the underclassmen returning... Greenville took a tremendous hit on graduating seniors this past year... this recruiting success is just what was necessary to keep them competitive this year rather than falling into the rebuilding mode....

As for Westmin, BC, Webster, Eureka, I'm simply out of the loop....

where can we see the details?

[hopefan]

Hope.   GC has added a commitments page to the hoops site.

http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/recruits/index.dot

Here you are EC.... and by the way, I really appreciate your interest in the SLIAC as a relatively new poster....  if you have access to any info from the hoops office as far as recruiting, or Kindred starting at wide receiver, let us know!!!!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Hope you don't mind a break in the action, as it were, but I want to share a story the D3 community should know about. You actually may have seen the story on the front page of D3hoops.com, but just in case:

A Goucher basketball player has been paralyzed in a freak accident. He was wrestling around with a friend one morning in his dorm building when he landed on his neck. The entire story is here.

He was released from the hospital to the Kennedy Krieger Institute for rehab shortly after that article was posted last week. However, over the weekend he was sent back to the hospital when he apparently had trouble breathing. Now he awaits a return to the rehab facility, probably any day if he hasn't been released already.

Please keep Damone Brooks, his family, the Goucher basketball team(s), and Goucher community in your thoughts, hearts, and prayers. The family certainly needs help with medical bills as well, so if you feel inclined, please consider them as well.

To follow his progress online, click here.
And to consider a donation, click here.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

[ecreddevils]

Hope.   GC has added a commitments page to the hoops site.

http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/recruits/index.dot

Here you are EC.... and by the way, I really appreciate your interest in the SLIAC as a relatively new poster....  if you have access to any info from the hoops office as far as recruiting, or Kindred starting at wide receiver, let us know!!!!

Cool, thanks!  Nothing concrete about basketball recruits lately, a few rumors but try to avoid those.  As far as JK, I would guess he has a really good shot to get significant action at wr with the loss of Schmidgall and Hess to graduation.  He is in seriously good shape and the word is he was throwing down 360 dunks.

[hopefan]

Hope.   GC has added a commitments page to the hoops site.

http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/recruits/index.dot

Here you are EC.... and by the way, I really appreciate your interest in the SLIAC as a relatively new poster....  if you have access to any info from the hoops office as far as recruiting, or Kindred starting at wide receiver, let us know!!!!

Cool, thanks!  Nothing concrete about basketball recruits lately, a few rumors but try to avoid those.  As far as JK, I would guess he has a really good shot to get significant action at wr with the loss of Schmidgall and Hess to graduation.  He is in seriously good shape and the word is he was throwing down 360 dunks.

You should have seen him at Greenville... best 1 man show I've seen in my 7 or 8 years following the SLIAC..... trouble is, that kind of game spoils the fan... he's expected to do it all every game, and that isn't going to happen.... still, if Coach Wilde can get the iron-man 5 playing together every night, and get a little more off the bench, EC will challenge for a conference title this year...  but I really think playing football will only hurt Kindred's game.....

[ecreddevils]

Hope.   GC has added a commitments page to the hoops site.

http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/recruits/index.dot

Here you are EC.... and by the way, I really appreciate your interest in the SLIAC as a relatively new poster....  if you have access to any info from the hoops office as far as recruiting, or Kindred starting at wide receiver, let us know!!!!

Cool, thanks!  Nothing concrete about basketball recruits lately, a few rumors but try to avoid those.  As far as JK, I would guess he has a really good shot to get significant action at wr with the loss of Schmidgall and Hess to graduation.  He is in seriously good shape and the word is he was throwing down 360 dunks.

You should have seen him at Greenville... best 1 man show I've seen in my 7 or 8 years following the SLIAC..... trouble is, that kind of game spoils the fan... he's expected to do it all every game, and that isn't going to happen.... still, if Coach Wilde can get the iron-man 5 playing together every night, and get a little more off the bench, EC will challenge for a conference title this year...  but I really think playing football will only hurt Kindred's game.....

I think we should definitely contend for the title.  Last year was a matter of consistency and maybe relying a bit too much on the three--when it was falling, we were deadly, when not, there wasn't really a backup plan.  Lessen is in ungodly shape and could really dominate the league this year.  If that happens, the inside/outside game with Nailor, Rivera, Kindred and Fritsch knocking down threes, and Kindred and Fritsch penetrating off the dribble, make EC is a very, very good team.  To me, Fritsch is the key.  I really think he's a low-level D1 type talent.