MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

Greg. He heard from all those you mentioned with the better angle. LOUDLY. I'm surprised he didn't spit his whistle out. It was a oh sh*t moment. I personaly don't know if I could refocus and decide to make a call. I don't care.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't hear it. Listen to the video again at that point. There were 1,750 people screaming their lungs out. You can't hear Ron Rose, or anybody else on the IWU bench, complain about the non-call on the audio. The only reason why the IWU broadcasters understood why Rose and several IWU players and assistant coaches leaped to their feet and pointed at Etter is because the broadcasters were sitting courtside right next to the IWU bench.

They deserve better Greg. I just think they deserve better. But, no one gets it.

Titan I'm done with the conspiracy of was one given home cooking. And, It was "Garden Variety". I'm saying why is it Made to sound like it is acceptable. It shouldn't be.

Nobody said that Webster didn't deserve better, Denny. They did deserve better. Heck, I'm sure that most people who watched the game and who don't have a wardrobe loaded with green clothing were rooting for the Gorloks. Cheering for the underdog is a cherished tradition in American sports, especially a huge underdog that shocks everyone by proving its mettle against a highly-regarded opponent. You could practically hear the opening fanfare from the Rocky theme playing in your head when Webster took that late lead.

And nobody said that a bad call in the final three seconds is good form for refereeing a basketball game. But it's acceptable in the sense that it has to be accepted as a done deal, because you can't file a postgame protest over a foul call that is essentially a matter of a referee's judgment rather than a rulebook dispute.

As I said, it's a shame that it happened. Sometimes basketball games end with decisive bad calls, and the losing team and its fans have a valid right to be upset about it. But it doesn't necessarily indicate make-up calls, or conspiracies, or anything other than a simple bad call on the part of the offending referee. Even the best ref makes bad calls.

Greg the exact post as I was expecting from you. Your an accept it kind of personality.

Baloney. You're in no position to judge me, Denny. You don't know me at all.

The bad call had to be accepted because: 1) the tourney needed to continue as scheduled on Saturday night; 2) there is no provision in the NCAA rulebook for a coach to file a postgame protest with the NCAA over a judgment call rather than a rules dispute; and 3) like it or not, referees are human and make mistakes, which means that they will occasionally blow a call. It's therefore part of the game. Same thing goes with just about every sport that doesn't involve computerized timing devices and cameras (i.e., auto racing and horse racing). Officiating is a human (and, therefore, fallible) element to sports that we all have to live with. You're a St. Louis guy. I'm sure that you remember Don Denkinger and the '85 World Series.

The BEST at most levels do not make that call.

Wrong. The best refs at every level blow calls on occasion. And if you ref long enough, you'll get caught in the cross-hairs of a game-decider like that. It's inevitable.

And, why you would want to settle for less for the Kids you followed so many years. Your the Kind that won't Get It.

Again, I resent that. You have no right to say that to me. You don't know me.

I respect the fact that you're passionate about defending Webster, but you're out of line in personalizing this issue like that.

But, if they Did!!! Wow we would have somebody telling it to the mountain tops.

But, you don't. So sit down Denny. Accept it.

Yes, unfortunately. Sit down and accept it, because there's not a darned thing that you, or I, or Chris Bunch, or the SLIAC commissioner, or anybody else, can do about it. It's quite possible that Coach Bunch gave a bad written postgame evaluation for the ref involved, which could affect that ref's ability to be assigned to NCAA tourney games in the future. But it doesn't change what happened on Friday night. Nothing can change what happened on Friday night. It's over and done with, and there's no turning back the clock.

If it makes you feel better, you can think of this as the SLIAC's version of the '72 Olympics championship game between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. But it's been over forty years now, and the result of that game still stands -- and Doug Collins, Jim Brewer, Tommy Burleson, et al., still don't have gold medals for '72, and they'll never get any.

[Denny McKinney]

Ok, Greg. My apologies on anything took personally. I'm Past Webster game. '72 Olympics sounds good. I think there needs to be a push on the supervisors of officials at the conference level, I think there needs to be a unification of requirements, quality, experience, on going training, physical conditions. I think the DIII as good as anyone else needs to start a serious effort to recruit more youth to the profession. There are fewer and fewer. Assignor's have a smaller pool. And, guys stay around for 30 years and never go anywhere. I have player 38 in San Antonio. When the family expanded so did expenses. 4 years he has worked his way from Rec. League, Youth League, HS and this year he's starting to get small college games. You take the right route, Your making $500 a week for 4 nites and 8 hours of work. I know travel. But you get what I'm saying. Problem is he is the only one I know doing it.

Someone needs to get to the men and women players out of school, may be in education, has college bills. Good Money.

That's all I want to see. Cause the Garden Variety just don't cut it anymore. For me.

[Gregory Sager]

Apology accepted. And, like you, I'm totally in favor of doing whatever it takes to upgrade referee quality. In fact, I'm kind of interested in the referee-selection process for the D3 tournament. I know that the refs are only allowed to work games that involve teams that are not in the conferences to which they're normally assigned. But I wonder who does the assignments: The D3 regional committee? The D3 men's basketball Championship Committee (i.e., the national committee)? I highly doubt that anyone involved with the host site has anything to do with it, since that would invite the appearance of impropriety.

[Denny McKinney]

Greg. Unless changed in the past 3 years. It's regional. At the Wash U pod. Ron Zetcher of the SLIAC had a crew, an UAA assignor had reprensitive and the third crew is brought in from out of the area. Sliac crew called Calvin's first game. After, the first weekend I have no experience.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It is regional, but usually the regional committee has a say if they know there is a problem or know anything about a ref they feel shouldn't be at the game - doesn't always change things, but I know conversations have been had about assignments.

[allamericanredhead]

I have been lurking most to the season, but these old bones got to get in on this one. I watched the call. HORRIBLE way for those Webster kids to end their season. No way is that call made. It was said earlier, but worth repeating, if the roles were reversed and it was the upstart trying to hold off the establishment, no way is that call made and I dare anyone to look me in the eye and tell me otherwise. BAIL OUT the big money boys. The one aspect I don't like about DIII is the elitest attitued and feelings of entitlement by the big money schools. Why late hubby and I never supported Wash U. ARROGANCE to the max.

I hope the Webster people take this to the highest level and never back down. That man should never officiate another game above the CYC level. Once again, most unfair call I have ever seen.

[allamericanredhead]

Without naming names, I know of one official assigner who had quite a good scam going. He got the Show Me States games to pay him $20 a game to place officials for their summer basketball events. He would then send a mass letter mailing to local HS and JH officials telling them if they wanted to work college games for him they MUST attend his Officials Clinic and pay him $150 fee for the honor of doing so. Guess what the "Officials Clinic" was? You got it, working the Show Me State Games for no pay! So if a young official wanted to get assigned college games, you had to line his pocket all summer.  I dare someone to come on here and tell me that scam didn't go on for years.

[allamericanredhead]

Is Zetcher still assigning officials? I know he and Lee were big buddies, so don't get mad Dennis, but hopefully the new commissioner is doing away with the good od boy system that was the biggest problem for years with the horrible level of officials in the SLIAC.

[y_jack_lok]

In fact, I'm kind of interested in the referee-selection process for the D3 tournament.

hopefan and I went to the 2008 Final Four in Salem -- the first year Wash U won the championship. Imagine our surprise when the officials who walked out to call the first game between Ursinus and Amherst were all three refs that we routinely had seen doing SLIAC games for four or five years.

[Denny McKinney]

Is Zetcher still assigning officials? I know he and Lee were big buddies, so don't get mad Dennis, but hopefully the new commissioner is doing away with the good od boy system that was the biggest problem for years with the horrible level of officials in the SLIAC.

Zetch has been around a long time. He treat my Dad good. But, you don't have clarify a this statement. I had a problem with half the traveling road show that were The SLIAC officials. And, yes I saw the exact same events mentioned, when Dad's and SLU's teams camps were the same weekend. As a crow flies the gyms were all in a 30 block area.

I just want to see some new faces. and, youth. Ron Hoover who assigns for the sliac women finds new blood. I have nothing but good to say about the womens ref's. I'm going to leave with a story. Just remember. All I'm asking is for the kids who are paying thousands out of pocket each year. To play in what is billed as the true basketball division. Should have the BEST you can pay. That call would of never been called in a Div I NCAA game. Because it would be scrutinized from every angle. And, they (referees) are performing at their highest level. And, they know the Best and Easiest really call is to stick the whistle in their pocket. They were either going to be making the Right Call, It's going to show defender initiated the contact. Or, Dick Vitale say, "I think it's a Great No Call, BABY. Left the Kids decided it. Baby."

Either the NCAA can bring DI's into call the tournament. Or, DIII can change it. I PRAY for the second. These kids do NOT have to be made to accept Less.

Other wise The NAIA II can give them this kind of experience and they don't have to PAY FOR IT. 


I have a press clipping with a pic of Dad and a current referee. Current referee that called Calvin's first game and in '82 he was nose to nose with Dad. The writer at Mo Southern put it back then, "Coach has every right on this one. I've never seen a flagrant foul called on a kid for having his nose broke. I believe the referee just got the two players messed up. But, he won't be changing it tonite." My Dad got T'd by this official in 3 different decades?? He called a great game Friday nite. But, come on. NEW BLOOD.

[Pat Coleman]

It's like a train wreck. I can't look away.

[allamericanredhead]

If Zetcher is involved, and it is good, then it is all good for Zetcher. I don't think the new commish is a good old boy and hopefully when Zetcher is gone, the last of the good old boy syndrome in the SLIAC is also gone. Then the officials can be picked on merit instead of who was willing to work all summer to line someone's pocket. And Rich, I dare you to come on here and deny that is how Zetcher picked (and probably still is) officials for the SLIAC.

[Denny McKinney]

AAR- you have earned a + 1K

It's like a train wreck. I can't look away.

Pat, in your position and your vested interest in DIII, I expect you would want the best.

[Denny McKinney]

TQ thanks for that link.. here's the funny thing.. my computer decided to buffer right as Jordan Overstree went to the foul line... by the time it was running again, the players were shaking hands.. I had no idea how things went down

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

[hopefan]

It's like a train wreck. I can't look away.

Pat, I've never given you a + before... I've far too often taken you for granted.... for this one, a BIG +