MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WUPHF]

Unfortunately I don't know if there is a basketball/academic person on the campus qualified to make the best new personnel decision....

Thanks for the correction regarding Greenville.  I knew they lost both meetings with Greenville, so I am not sure why I added them to the otherwise small list of teams Fontbonne beat in conference play.

To your point about leadership, my understanding is that Dr. Goldman was heavily involved in hiring the last coach, though Goldman is retiring in a few months and they have a new president from Division III Alvernia.  I am not sure if the latter is on campus yet.  It will be interesting to see if either plays a role.  Time will tell how the new president approaches campus athletics.

[WUPHF]

As far as coaching candidates are concerned, there are a few SLIAC alumni in the coaching ranks including Coach Lawson. 

It would be interesting to know how the pay compares to other universities in Missouri and Illinois and whether or not there is an expectation (or mandate) that the new coach also coach the Women's Golf team.

[Denny McKinney]

FU would not be in the top half on an area pay scale. This is not just the coaches. There are reasons why 3 canidates turned down the AD job. Before it was given to the current AD. Most of all coaches, when Dad was there, were part time. You had WBB, baseball and Men's soccer and of course the Bball assistant / men and Women's golf, Coach's that were full time employees. Now it's down to Soccer, Baseball and Golf. Dad built the program on first time young HC's mostly from FU. Scott Cooper did not coach baseball at FU for the money. Haha. Coach Quigley WBB had one years experience as Men's JV coach, before making his run. Brian Heoner longtime soccer coach, student/ turned HC. Dad's first Baseball coach and Asst. AD, Darrin Hendrickson got his first head job there. Then won a Juco Championship and is now SLU's HC. Who won the A10 last year. Kimmy Kutis piloted FU to a long VB Dynasty, while helping run family business, Kutis Funeral Homes. Not in it for the money. But FC grad and like a little Sister. He was my Sis in Laws FC roommate and 3 sport athlete.

Everybody thinks FC has all this money? Lookat their endowment ranking. Dad built what you see on a shoestring budget and Great Fundraising.

I hope for the best in their search and make the right decision. May happen with a New Prez. Not with the out going. Let's hope Folks. There are candidates with FU ties that would do a Great Job! They know the system. And, area. What did FU get out of Chicago, Nothing. Will Rapier lasted a semester. Jack Stevens could of been a big help this year. Gone after one. And, now Dallas Heyward. Hire someone who can recruit the Missouri / IL area first. IMHO

Sorry I could not confirm last nite, Hopefan. Just don't know any of the Folks up there now. I felt something that was that Shocking needed, someone with more info then me. I thought I did a very good job of biting my tounge and giving the Kid all the support I could.

[Denny McKinney]

Now I'm almost 10 K's in the whole. I can see the one time every 24 hours coming into play. Hahaha Go Boys Go!!!

[WUPHF]

Hire someone who can recruit the Missouri / IL area first. IMHO

They definitely need someone who is ready to recruit both Missouri and Illinois.  They need someone who can recruit the rural Class 1-3 schools along with the big St. Louis area public schools and Catholic high schools.  Illinois is critical though as Missouri schools are far less expensive, making them idea for some Illinois residents (depending on MAP grant eligibility).

Otherwise, thanks for the thoughts on the finances and +1 remaining true to yourself.  You may be a little more out there than me, but I get it.

[BunchTime]

I'm with Denny here.  If I'm FU, I look locally first. Perhaps someone with FU ties, though it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.  While some of these guys suggested by our CCIW brethren are probably strong candidates, the SLIAC can be a different animal than what many of them are used to dealing with (i.e. large metropolitan area, a commuter campus, competing w/many other local schools, knowledge of the local high schools, lack of investment in athletics by University admins, etc.).  However, I'm not to suggesting that an outsider couldn't get the job done (see Coach Bunch).  However, someone with FU or SLIAC ties, knows what the job comes with, relentless recruiter, and an excellent knowledge of the local preps scene and relationship with coaches would be my top priorities.  At the DIII level, I'd take a mediocre coach who can get some players over a great coach but mediocre recruiter.  That's, of course, if you had to choose.  Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Gregory Sager]

I really thought this guy was the man. I thought, Catholic, Private School, on the bench at Augustana, NPU (where he was a finalist

Not true, Denny. Steve Schafer wasn't a finalist for the NPU head coaching job, either in the spring of 2011 (when Dylan Howard was hired) or the spring of 2012 (when Tom Slyder was hired).

I'm with Denny here.  If I'm FU, I look locally first. Perhaps someone with FU ties, though it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.  While some of these guys suggested by our CCIW brethren are probably strong candidates,

Only one potential candidate has been suggested by the CCIW posters: Steve Schweer, who is currently the assistant coach at Monmouth. He was a reserve on Illinois Wesleyan's 2006 Final Four team, and he served as a graduate assistant at North Park for two years before landing the job as Todd Skrivseth's second chair at Monmouth.

While a lot of us NPU and IWU folks obviously think highly of Schweer, he's probably not a realistic candidate for the vacant Fontbonne job. He only has the two GA years at North Park and the two years at Monmouth on his college coaching resume -- and in neither place was the team in question successful during his stay there, although that's hardly his fault. Steve Schafer, by contrast, had a lot more experience than that when Fontbonne hired him. But if FU wants to roll the dice on a young coach whose resume's still a bit thin but who would come with a lot of recommendations (and who has great sales abilities, as can be seen by the size of Monmouth's freshman and sophomore classes this season), in an effort to perhaps save the school some money by paying a beginner's salary, Fontbonne could certainly do a lot worse than to hire Steve Schweer.

the SLIAC can be a different animal than what many of them are used to dealing with

Actually, BT, what you describe as SLIAC distinctives with which a CCIW guy wouldn't be able to relate are things that are right up the alley of a lot of CCIW coaches:

(i.e. large metropolitan area,

Yep. We've got that. Greater St. Louis has a shade under three million people, making it the 19th largest metro area in the country. Chicagoland has nine and a half million people, which makes it the third-largest metro area in the U.S.

Every CCIW program except for Wheaton and Millikin focuses first and foremost upon Chicagoland for recruiting -- and Wheaton and Millikin certainly get their share of Chicagoland kids, too.

a commuter campus,

Several CCIW schools have extensive commuter populations. Three of them, in fact -- Elmhurst, North Central, and North Park -- are roughly half commuter, half resident in terms of their undergraduate populations. Elmhurst, for example, is 60% commuter, 40% resident.

competing w/many other local schools,

As I said, most CCIW schools cover the same territory (particularly Chicago's northern, northwestern, and western suburbs) in recruiting. It's commonplace to go to a high-school game in the Chicago suburbs and see coaches from three or four different CCIW teams sitting in the stands. The Chicago metro area is also heavily mined for talent by an array of other small schools: NACC, MWC, IIAC, the local NAIA league (CCAC), and even the WIAC and UAA (Mark Edwards of Wash U has had great luck working the Chicago suburbs to find his Bears).

knowledge of the local high schools,

That's where a CCIW-bred candidate for the Fontbonne job would fall short at first. There's a growth curve in terms of recruiting whenever a new coach who is unfamiliar with his new school's recruiting turf moves in.

lack of investment in athletics by University admins, etc.).

There's plenty of that in the CCIW, too. It's just on a different scale. The issue of a lack of investment in athletics is relative to the competition.

However, I'm not to suggesting that an outsider couldn't get the job done (see Coach Bunch).  However, someone with FU or SLIAC ties, knows what the job comes with, relentless recruiter, and an excellent knowledge of the local preps scene and relationship with coaches would be my top priorities.  At the DIII level, I'd take a mediocre coach who can get some players over a great coach but mediocre recruiter.  That's, of course, if you had to choose.  Just my 2 cents on the matter.

A mediocre coach who can get some players is not a mediocre coach, and a great coach who is a mediocre recruiter is not a great coach (unless his school has the resources for him to have a full-time assistant coach or coaches who are great recruiters). Most of coaching is recruiting. There's no success for a program unless the coach can get the players he needs in order to achieve that success.

[BunchTime]

You know what I meant, Sager. It should have said "Xs and Os coach."  Bottom line, I believe someone best suited for FU would be a coach with great ties to the local preps scene, who can go out and get players immediately.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Quite true about recruiting.  Denny Bridges used to say (the exact quote is in his book, but I can't find it this evening - curses on books without an index!) something to the effect of "good coaching is getting off the bus with the best players".

[Gregory Sager]

You know what I meant, Sager. It should have said "Xs and Os coach."  Bottom line, I believe someone best suited for FU would be a coach with great ties to the local preps scene, who can go out and get players immediately.

I think it specifically needs to be stated as "X's and O's coach" if that's what you meant. Far too many people divorce recruiting from coaching, as if players just magically show up on campus all by themselves.

What fans see from a coach is game management (play-calling, tactics, substitutions), and they think that that's most of what coaches do. But what they see at a game is only the tip of the pyramid in terms of what a coach actually does for a living. Scouting and prep work take up more time than do actual in-game coaching. Practices and skills development are an even bigger part of the pyramid. And recruiting is the base of the pyramid.

[BunchTime]

Exactly my point, Ypsi and Sager.  Xs and Os or whatever assistant jobs the prospective FU coach has had would be something that would be very low on my priority list if I were AD.  Once again, give me someone plugged into the high school scene and has great relationships with Metro STL high school coaches. I've always felt that a successful and respected high school coach would be a great place to start a coaching search. Think about it...a successful and respected STL high school coach would know just about everyone in the local scene, would have instant name recognition for prospective recruits and would be someone other local coaches would enjoy and trust having his players play for. 

[BunchTime]

You know what I meant, Sager. It should have said "Xs and Os coach."  Bottom line, I believe someone best suited for FU would be a coach with great ties to the local preps scene, who can go out and get players immediately.

I think it specifically needs to be stated as "X's and O's coach" if that's what you meant. Far too many people divorce recruiting from coaching, as if players just magically show up on campus all by themselves.

What fans see from a coach is game management (play-calling, tactics, substitutions), and they think that that's most of what coaches do. But what they see at a game is only the tip of the pyramid in terms of what a coach actually does for a living. Scouting and prep work take up more time than do actual in-game coaching. Practices and skills development are an even bigger part of the pyramid. And recruiting is the base of the pyramid.

I think most folks with even a rudimentary understanding of college hoops realize that recruiting is the backbone of any successful team/coach.  Perhaps I'm wrong. 

[Denny McKinney]

Sir Sager. - it was the story he came in with. It would not have been hard for me to believe this after learning how much time he spent at NPU. How would I know?

I don't know what the rest of your text was talking about. As you need to fill in a whole page of quotes, quotes from quotes, snips of your two cents. With all that blue on the page, I just lose interest.

[Denny McKinney]

Sir. Sager. I think you are underestimating what fans know about coaching duties. I believe the ability to recruit and then be able to motivate those players. And, don't over coach!

[Gregory Sager]

High-school coaches have their pluses and minuses, BT. You've described the pluses: Familiarity with the recruiting area and the other local high-school coaches, name recognition, etc. It's certainly not unprecedented for a successful local high-school coach to turn out to be a great hire for a D3 school (e.g., Mike Fuline at Mount Union, and, in a different sport, John Thorne for North Central football).

But there are minuses, too. Just because you've been at the high-school end of the recruiting process as a coach doesn't mean that you'll be competent, to say nothing of successful, at the college end of the process. The level of player with which you'll be working is different, and that comes with its own learning curve in terms of being able to work not only with the different physical nature and different skills level of 18-to-21-year-olds as opposed to 15-to-18-year-olds, but also the very different mentality, maturity, and time-management skills of those two age groups. The politics of high-school faculties and administrations are very different than the politics of college administrations and athletic department staffs. The budget and travel are different, too. All in all, lots of minor differences, some major differences.

There's obviously plenty of precedent for an effective crossover from high-school coaching to college coaching. But it's not an automatic thing, by any means. And that's why a lot of ADs specifically require, or at least emphasize, college coaching experience in the list of job requirements when they post job openings for coaches.

I think most folks with even a rudimentary understanding of college hoops realize that recruiting is the backbone of any successful team/coach.  Perhaps I'm wrong. 

Sir. Sager. I think you are underestimating what fans know about coaching duties.

As far as I know, neither of you frequents any rooms on d3boards.com besides this one (and perhaps the CCIW room as lurkers), so you'd both be surprised at how many posters on d3boards.com leave out recruiting when they talk about coaching, and treat recruiting as a completely different topic. As Mr. Ypsi will testify, I tend to have a few hobby horses to which I frequently respond on d3boards.com. (And regular posters who are active in multiple rooms, such as Mr. Ypsi, see me coming a mile away whenever these subjects come up; they almost race each other to post, "How long before Sager comments on this?" ) Those hobby horses are:

1) People referring to non-conference games played in November and December as "preseason";
2) People using the cliché, "It's hard to beat a team three times in one season"; and
3) People who treat recruiting as something completely separate from coaching when talking about the coaching profession.

In certain ways I'm a pretty predictable creature.