MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[y_jack_lok]

Great job of research pantherpride06. This is only my 6th season of following the SLIAC, primarily Webster. In that time the only CCIW team I can find that Webster has played is Millikin. I was able to get Webster vs Millikin results from the Millikin website for the past eight seasons (including this year) back to 1999-2000. In that time Webster is 3-5 against Millikin, but has lost the last 3 years. The wins were in '99-'00, '00-'01,and '03-'04.

[BunchTime]

I agree with much of what you say!  I am speaking from Webster's perspective who consistently is one of the top teams in the SLIAC.  Thus, and I believe Coach Bunch would agree, that we should be beating these teams that are in the lower half of the CCIW.  That said, I do not think the SLIAC's best team should be playing Illinois Wesleyan and hanging with them, but merely that the top 2 SLIAC teams should have a winning record against the CCIW bottom half teams!

Also, using past records of the SLIAC vs CCIW would be a mess, because of there long standing tradition as a strong regional conference.  But the question remains, we are no longer a new conference (yes, compared to the CCIW we are) and when will our top teams beat some of the CCIW's celler dwellers with some regularity?

[BunchTime]

Ok, Webster is 3-5 against Milliken!  And what I am saying is that 3-5 should not be, and cannot be, satisfying to the SLIAC.  Our conference wants respect, so we first must turn, for example, this record around to at least 5-3.  As I alluded to in a previous post, Webster has arguably been the best team in the conference over the last 5 years and 3-5 against the like of a Milliken is just not geting it done.  I am a diehard Webster fan, but I am critical of this record because I, for one, expect better!

[fcnews]

BunchTime - You don't have to "Expect" it but you will need to accept it. That being said, The majority of the SLIAC teams are upgrading schedules and in most situations have the facilities. It's kind of like the early years of Valley teams taking on Big 8 or Big 10 teams.

Pride 1945 ? FC was an all girl school with less then 300 students.

[BunchTime]

FC, I agree that most of the SLIAC has done a good job of upgrading there schedules and facilities.  However, SLIAC teams need to rid there schedules of the bible schools and pharmacy teams. This does nothing for any of the SLIAC teams, but inflate records.

And I will reiterate my point, I will continue to "expect" better and until the SLIAC players, coaches, and fans expect better this conference will continue to be marginal.  The Valley teams that you mentioned refused to "accept" complacency, so they first upgraded there schedules to include teams from the Big 10 and Big 12, and then they began beating them.  But I presume, based on this discussion, that many of you are content with a 14 win season and a third place finish so that your team has a shot in the conference tournament to get to the National tourney.  I am not, but my expectation alone will do nothing!

[Daryl L Lloyd]

FC, I agree that most of the SLIAC has done a good job of upgrading there schedules and facilities.  However, SLIAC teams need to rid there schedules of the bible schools and pharmacy teams. This does nothing for any of the SLIAC teams, but inflate records.

And I will reiterate my point, I will continue to "expect" better and until the SLIAC players, coaches, and fans expect better this conference will continue to be marginal.  The Valley teams that you mentioned refused to "accept" complacency, so they first upgraded there schedules to include teams from the Big 10 and Big 12, and then they began beating them.  But I presume, based on this discussion, that many of you are content with a 14 win season and a third place finish so that your team has a shot in the conference tournament to get to the National tourney.  I am not, but my expectation alone will do nothing!

Could not have said it better myself BunchTime.

[fcnews]

Bunchtime - don't miss understand me, nobody and I mean nobody wants to win worst then those involved in the FU program. FU has gone out and gotten the kids on the fence. All three of FU's freshmen had to make a choice between D2 scholarships and playing at FU. In fact Cartez Parker could of possibly gone D1 in football (receiver).

The biggest problem in comparing SLIAC to other conferences is size. I think night in night out SLIAC players can shoot and can defend with alot of teams. But, the size matchups are ridicules.

[BunchTime]

FC, if that is the case at FU then I laud those efforts and must say that you all are on the right track in out-recruiting some foes to become a tough match-up throughout the region.  I understand all the difficulties of recruiting at this level, and specifically in the SLIAC (financial reasons, commuter schools, kids deciding not to give D3 schools a look, etc.).  But these things will probably not change, therefore, schools must find a way to get it done and I believe it starts with developing a solid reputation and this can only be accomplished with playing good competition and winning!  Easier said than done, but we must start somewhere!

[Titan Q]

I ran into two of SLIAC Chat's finest yesterday at the Wash U/Pomona-Pitzer game -- hopefan and y_jack_lok.  Hope, nice to see you again and yj, nice to meet you.  Keep the conversations going here...I enjoy following the SLIAC via this board.  You guys all do a nice job.

[y_jack_lok]

Nice to meet you, too, TQ. I didn't get to mention in our brief conversation that I went to IWU for your tip-off tourney in Nov. 2004 when my alma mater, Randolph-Macon, was playing there. Sadly they lost the opening game to DePauw by 2 points and the consolation game to Aurora by 3 points. (It was Larry Welton's freshman year and you could tell he was going to be terrific.) In an odd way, in retrospect, I'm glad R-MC didn't win their first game in that tournament because IWU came out in the championship game against DePauw and scored the first 17 points. DePauw didn't know what hit them. And the Shirk Center is the best facility I've been in for basketball. I saw quite a few games at Rupp Arena when I lived in Lexington, KY. But there's nothing like the intimacy of a nice D3 arena.

[Gregory Sager]

Northwest Missouri State d. Principia 111-36
Grace d. Lincoln Christian  81-61

Thought Webster was at home against Millikin. My mistake. But I think if a SLIAC is within two points of a CCIW team in the second half, that fits my definition of being competitive. My guess is Millikin hit a bucket load of free throws in the last minute or two to help them get to their final margin.

Yes and no. According to the PBP attached to the box score, Millikin did hit six FTs in the final 1:07 of the game. But the game was not competitive, at least not at the end. Webster never got any closer than nine points in the game's last five minutes, and the lead was in double digits from the last 4:12 onward. Yes, Webster was within two points in the second half, but it ceased to be a one-possession game with nine minutes and change remaining. Whether it was a case of Webster running out of gas or a superior Big Blue team pulling away is something best left to commentators who saw the game.

We just can't compete with them and it's not worth it for Greenville atleast, to go play IWU or Augie every year and get wasted by these schools.  Heck, we go scrimmage Millikin and they are middle of the road CCIW and get beat by 40 the last two years. 

Millikin's not a "middle of the road" CCIW program. Over the last six years the Big Blue has finished either seventh or eighth in the eight-team league, with one exception -- and in that exceptional season, 2003, they finished fifth. The Big Blue hasn't won a CCIW title since 1989, and they have the longest current drought of NCAA tourney appearances in the CCIW (they last made the big dance the same year that they won their last league title).

However, it's generally agreed by CCIW observers that Millikin coach Tim Littrell brought in a terrific freshman class this season, and he had the best freshman in the league last season in guard Drew Gensler, so the fortunes of the Big Blue may be changing.

On Greenville's end, we have asked some of the CCIW schools to come here and play becasue we know it's a mess to go up there bc we will get trounced up there

I'm sympathetic to your alma mater's plight, Pride, but at the moment it's just not sound scheduling policy for a CCIW team to play anything but the top-level SLIAC teams, for reasons of both tournament consideration and competitive utility.

I agree with much of what you say!  I am speaking from Webster's perspective who consistently is one of the top teams in the SLIAC.  Thus, and I believe Coach Bunch would agree, that we should be beating these teams that are in the lower half of the CCIW.  That said, I do not think the SLIAC's best team should be playing Illinois Wesleyan and hanging with them, but merely that the top 2 SLIAC teams should have a winning record against the CCIW bottom half teams!

Webster has done quite well against North Park in recent seasons. Of course, NPU has been wallowing at the bottom of the CCIW alongside Millikin for the better part of this decade.

FC, I agree that most of the SLIAC has done a good job of upgrading there schedules and facilities.  However, SLIAC teams need to rid there schedules of the bible schools and pharmacy teams. This does nothing for any of the SLIAC teams, but inflate records.

Exactly! If you want the SLIAC to get better, you have to get everyone to agree to no longer schedule glorified intramural teams as non-conference opponents. Unfortunately, I don't think that bringing Lincoln Christian into the fold is going to help matters. LCC doesn't appear to be ready for the SLIAC's level of competition, to say nothing of the level maintained by the other local D3 leagues and by Wash U, and my guess is that the Preachers are going to continue to schedule a bunch of Bible schools every year.

[Mac Attack]

Can anyone tell me which schools in the SLIAC make the audio of their men's basketball games available via webcast? MacMurray is webcasting all of their home conference games and next year plan on doing all of the games, home and away.

Don't forget to get your picks in by noon today.

[fcnews]

I'm sure the big game between Principia @ Wheaton will add to this discussion. 

[pantherpride06]

From Sager:
I'm sympathetic to your alma mater's plight, Pride, but at the moment it's just not sound scheduling policy for a CCIW team to play anything but the top-level SLIAC teams, for reasons of both tournament consideration and competitive utility.

- Therefore this whole talk about the SLIAC scheduling CCIW teams goes in the garbage can.  If the CCIW sees it that scheduling a SLIAC school is "not sound scheduling," then what is the conversation for?  Don't say that it's a good idea and we will get better if the SLIAC & CCIW should schedule games... refer to

From Sager:
Exactly! If you want the SLIAC to get better, you have to get everyone to agree to no longer schedule glorified intramural teams as non-conference opponents. Unfortunately, I don't think that bringing Lincoln Christian into the fold is going to help matters. LCC doesn't appear to be ready for the SLIAC's level of competition, to say nothing of the level maintained by the other local D3 leagues and by Wash U, and my guess is that the Preachers are going to continue to schedule a bunch of Bible schools every year.

LCC may not be a great add to the SLIAC, but they have been a very decent squad in years past.  We are 31-11 in years past against them.  Last two games have went into OT.  LCC scheduling the bible schools now, because Im sure they have had contracts with them.  Will they continue to schedule them, probably a few.  Non-Conference total beat downs do nothing for your program.  I'm telling you.  I've worked with Coach Barber here at Greenville for four years now.  It's tough to get kids here.  One because of the money commitment.  The christian environment isn't really a draw back for anyone.  But, if they have the option of going out to play ball in the middle of a corn field and down town St. Louis (FU, MU, WU)... what would you choose.  And on top of it, if they seen us goinig 0-7 in non-confrence play with big losses to Millikin, IWU, Augie, Wash U, Rose-Hulman, Wabash, and DePauw... why are they going to come here.  Scheduling a game you are going to win is fine.  My goodness, DI football and baskebtall teams do it.  Butler scheduling us, Eastern Kentucky playing us and Webster a few years ago.... don't tell me it makes teams any less scheduling a lower tier team.  When people schedule most SLIAC schools, they are scheduling lower tier teams.  So, do we look less on those schools?  Obviously not because you think we should play them.

That's right, you are from North Park.... a lower tier team....  You have Judson on your schedule for atleast the last 5 years and have beat them the last four (excluding this year).  Judson is a NAIA/NCCAA team.  A christian school who is 1-10 this season.  I'd call them a "easy game."

I just get fustrated when it comes to this scheduling debate because it is tough to get kids at D3 schools wherever your at.  But, when it comes to our level (and yes there are different levels in D3), its even more difficult.  In this area, we are fightning with a ton of other places... JUCO's, other D3 schools, our facilities, STL schools....   There are some things you do to make it look a little better.  If we have a couple of schools on our schedule to help make our record look a tad bit better, then good.  In sted of 7-18 (which is already horrid), we'd been 6-19 (bc we lost to the easy team STL Pharmacy).  Instead of 9-16 a few years ago, we'd been 7-18.  May not make much difference to you up in Chicago, but here in So. Illinois it does.

[Mac Attack]

My picks:

12/4
Fontbonne

12/5
CMSU

12/6
Webster
Fontbonne
Wheaton
Eureka
MacMurray

12/8
DePauw
Bobby Morris

12/9
Maryville
Greenville
MacMurray
Westminster
Eureka

Good luck to all!