MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[iwumichigander]

Fontbonne Westmin... game started out slowly, neither team could score, eventually Fontbonne got going as Gentry and Ettinger came in and scored...  A crazy 3 point bank shot from ROMO Tabb got Westmin going with about 5 minutes left, and a double digit margin became only a 4 point deficit at half... Westmin came out and scored the first 8 points of the 2nd half to take the lead, led by Tanner Cochrane and Romo Tabb... Fontbonne chipped away, looked to get the ball into big man Bryce Zimmerman, who scored several shovel-hooks and got to the foul line often (with limited success).. Fontbonne regained the lead with Dorhauer getting to the line often, Cocrane led the 2nd WC comeback along with a big Romo 3 and critical free throws from Jim Villabos.... Fontbonne had the ball up 3 but had a shot blocked, Cocran came down and scored to cut the lead to 1 with 49 secs left, Gentry, who had gone 3-4 from the line in 2 previous possessions, was again fouled at 25 seconds and made 1... Westmin has 25 secs to tie or win, Villagos drives and misses a pretty reasonable shot from 5 ft off the rim, Font rebounds and is fouled with 5.8 secs on clock.. Trey Watkins misses 2, Villagos comes down and shoots from the arc...the shot is at the buzzer, is partially blocked, OR, the shooter is fouled... the refs run off the court as Westmin Coach Mitchell's stands dumbfounded at the no call, and it's over.. I don't know whether the shot beat the buzzer or not, but no foul call.....

A couple of observations... Coach Thornhill played offense/defense substitutions in the last 5 minutes... I liked it.. for the most part the right people were in at the right time... Gentry really took over the last 3 minutes... as long as he makes free throws in the clutch, the job is his, he did a great job... Fontbonne often had four guards and a forward on the floor, with success, as Westmin isn't exactly a rebounding machine....Bryce Zimmerman is the real deal... Jeff Smith never saw the floor... Greenlee missed a number of layups, I don't get it, just not strong as he was in the past...Ettinger, Gentry, Zimmerman, none started, all played well and won it for the Griffs....Westmin Cochrane couldn't be stopped penetrating to the hoop.... Watch out for Westmin Frosh Carter Wands, a frosh, very cute with the ball, he could be a good one in the SLIAC....  Amusing to me, Coach Thornhill rushing down on last play to shake Coach Mitchell's hand before anyone seemingly knew what, if any, call was made...it was bizarre as the refs seemed to have a second of indecision...

From the box scores...
BC 77 Webster 73.... what a great win for Blackburn...outstanding shooting from 3 point 9-15, beating Webster on the boards 41-32 does it.  Webster wastes a near triple double from Hunter Ward, 22 pts, 13 rebs, 8 assists... Webster shoots 35 fts vs BC only 12, but they make only 20... and lousy 3 point shooting, 3 for 17.. why resort to that?

Eureka 75  Mac 73.... speaking of lousy 3 point shooting Mac goes 4 for 22... Long gets 11 shots, Johnson 12...don't ask me??  And guards can't stop Feehan 25 (OK, he's a scorer), Goulding 24 (He has NOT been a scorer).. Hooray for Eureka, young, new, only one, maybe 2 guys that really contributed in the past, and they are COMPETING... As for Mac, given how much I think of Todd Creal, very disappointing....

Spalding 108  Greenville 85.... ok Coach, time to dump it... Daniel goes 6 for 15 from 3, the rest of the team goes 6 for 31... the system was fun to watch, for a while....

IWC 84  Prin 74.... Prin up 70-64 with a little more than 5 minutes left, but just can't last... Anumu goes for 32, I still don't understand Jeff Ross, 6'6", athletic, a player, getting 4 shots... IWC wins despite a 'subpar' performance from Chris Fowler (20 pts, 2 rbs, 6 assts, 6 steals), but IWC has 5 in double figures....

SO lokie lookie.... IWC/Webster/Westmin/ EC with 1 loss, Mac, Font, Spalding, BC 2 losses, GC 3, Prin with 4.... and Prin can beat anyone in the league, except maybe Greenville....

Or show some patience until he can recruit the right guys for it.  Greenville may be having more trouble than usual adapting to The System, but no team is instantly proficient at it.  I'm no real fan of The System, but kids seem to love it, and it seems to work pretty well against teams that don't have a HUGE advantage in talent.  Greenville will take huge lumps this year (and perhaps next year) but give 'em 'til 17-18 to judge for sure.  (Even then you need to ask 'would straight bball be any better for them?')

i don't know that he dumps it but needs IMHO to modify approach.  I just do not think the end of the end of the bench has what it takes, yet, to play at this level let alone "the system". Against IWU, I thought he had some real talent in the first group of starters and about three or four in the next five. I would adjust with the players I have.

[WUPHF]

I have one seen Greenville play the system one time this season and I did not watch the entire game, but based on the game against Westminster, the Coach is definitely easing in to the system.  For example, he took his time with substitutions with the core players playing significantly more than the reserves and did not take as many three pointers as one might have expected. 

Incidentally, Grinnell is only 5-6 on the season so far.  They lost recently to Carroll by the score of 109-103.  Carroll only shot one three pointer (they missed) but shot 69 percent from the field.

[hopefan]

Carroll only shot one three pointer (they missed) but shot 69 percent from the field.

In talking to a coach who has/will be opposing Greenville's system, one bit of 99% mandatory strategy is YOU DON'T SHOOT 3's VS THE SYSTEM... the system chases the ball all over the court.. any kind of good ball control/passing should result in layups....

Greenville's initial take on the system was 100%... injuries and short comings of some of the personnel has reduced the initial rotation of 3 units to perhaps 10-12 players...

[hopefan]

Tomorrow's game intrigues me... Eureka at Webster... when I saw Eureka lose at Monmouth early in the year, I told one of the Eureka parents on the way to the parking lot that if Eureka played that hard, with that much intensity, they would be fine within the league.... They've lived up to that prediction.... they and Westmin are the two teams that have thus far exceded my expectations.. (yes I had initial positive thoughts about Blackburn that were dashed when they got clobbered by Wash U, but they've lived up to my thoughts recently)   

By the way, where is poster 'haterinthehouse' when Blackburn is now reasonably competitive in the conference?

Yjack, really?   I'm not allowed to sit with you and my Webster buddies if I quietly root for Eureka?     I know, I'll just root for Eureka to keep it very close!!!

[WUPHF]

Greenville's initial take on the system was 100%... injuries and short comings of some of the personnel has reduced the initial rotation of 3 units to perhaps 10-12 players...

OK, interesting.

I looked at the Grinnell box scores and the opposing teams shooting a handful of three pointers is the norm.  Only one team shot more than that with Simpson shooting 160.

[hopefan]

That

Greenville's initial take on the system was 100%... injuries and short comings of some of the personnel has reduced the initial rotation of 3 units to perhaps 10-12 players...

OK, interesting.

I looked at the Grinnell box scores and the opposing teams shooting a handful of three pointers is the norm.  Only one team shot more than that with Simpson shooting 160.

160???  wow, that's a lot!!!

[WUPHF]

Ugh...with Simpson shooting 16.

I was much better at typing when I had a keyboard on my phone.

[WUPHF]

By the way, when are you going to go over to the Top 25 thread and defend the SLIAC?

[y_jack_lok]

Yjack, really?   I'm not allowed to sit with you and my Webster buddies if I quietly root for Eureka?     I know, I'll just root for Eureka to keep it very close!!!

Quietly is fine. Please join us. 

[Gregory Sager]

Fontbonne Westmin... game started out slowly, neither team could score, eventually Fontbonne got going as Gentry and Ettinger came in and scored...  A crazy 3 point bank shot from ROMO Tabb got Westmin going with about 5 minutes left, and a double digit margin became only a 4 point deficit at half... Westmin came out and scored the first 8 points of the 2nd half to take the lead, led by Tanner Cochrane and Romo Tabb... Fontbonne chipped away, looked to get the ball into big man Bryce Zimmerman, who scored several shovel-hooks and got to the foul line often (with limited success).. Fontbonne regained the lead with Dorhauer getting to the line often, Cocrane led the 2nd WC comeback along with a big Romo 3 and critical free throws from Jim Villabos.... Fontbonne had the ball up 3 but had a shot blocked, Cocran came down and scored to cut the lead to 1 with 49 secs left, Gentry, who had gone 3-4 from the line in 2 previous possessions, was again fouled at 25 seconds and made 1... Westmin has 25 secs to tie or win, Villagos drives and misses a pretty reasonable shot from 5 ft off the rim, Font rebounds and is fouled with 5.8 secs on clock.. Trey Watkins misses 2, Villagos comes down and shoots from the arc...the shot is at the buzzer, is partially blocked, OR, the shooter is fouled... the refs run off the court as Westmin Coach Mitchell's stands dumbfounded at the no call, and it's over.. I don't know whether the shot beat the buzzer or not, but no foul call.....

A couple of observations... Coach Thornhill played offense/defense substitutions in the last 5 minutes... I liked it.. for the most part the right people were in at the right time... Gentry really took over the last 3 minutes... as long as he makes free throws in the clutch, the job is his, he did a great job... Fontbonne often had four guards and a forward on the floor, with success, as Westmin isn't exactly a rebounding machine....Bryce Zimmerman is the real deal... Jeff Smith never saw the floor... Greenlee missed a number of layups, I don't get it, just not strong as he was in the past...Ettinger, Gentry, Zimmerman, none started, all played well and won it for the Griffs....Westmin Cochrane couldn't be stopped penetrating to the hoop.... Watch out for Westmin Frosh Carter Wands, a frosh, very cute with the ball, he could be a good one in the SLIAC....  Amusing to me, Coach Thornhill rushing down on last play to shake Coach Mitchell's hand before anyone seemingly knew what, if any, call was made...it was bizarre as the refs seemed to have a second of indecision...

From the box scores...
BC 77 Webster 73.... what a great win for Blackburn...outstanding shooting from 3 point 9-15, beating Webster on the boards 41-32 does it.  Webster wastes a near triple double from Hunter Ward, 22 pts, 13 rebs, 8 assists... Webster shoots 35 fts vs BC only 12, but they make only 20... and lousy 3 point shooting, 3 for 17.. why resort to that?

Eureka 75  Mac 73.... speaking of lousy 3 point shooting Mac goes 4 for 22... Long gets 11 shots, Johnson 12...don't ask me??  And guards can't stop Feehan 25 (OK, he's a scorer), Goulding 24 (He has NOT been a scorer).. Hooray for Eureka, young, new, only one, maybe 2 guys that really contributed in the past, and they are COMPETING... As for Mac, given how much I think of Todd Creal, very disappointing....

Spalding 108  Greenville 85.... ok Coach, time to dump it... Daniel goes 6 for 15 from 3, the rest of the team goes 6 for 31... the system was fun to watch, for a while....

IWC 84  Prin 74.... Prin up 70-64 with a little more than 5 minutes left, but just can't last... Anumu goes for 32, I still don't understand Jeff Ross, 6'6", athletic, a player, getting 4 shots... IWC wins despite a 'subpar' performance from Chris Fowler (20 pts, 2 rbs, 6 assts, 6 steals), but IWC has 5 in double figures....

SO lokie lookie.... IWC/Webster/Westmin/ EC with 1 loss, Mac, Font, Spalding, BC 2 losses, GC 3, Prin with 4.... and Prin can beat anyone in the league, except maybe Greenville....

Or show some patience until he can recruit the right guys for it.  Greenville may be having more trouble than usual adapting to The System, but no team is instantly proficient at it.  I'm no real fan of The System, but kids seem to love it, and it seems to work pretty well against teams that don't have a HUGE advantage in talent.  Greenville will take huge lumps this year (and perhaps next year) but give 'em 'til 17-18 to judge for sure.  (Even then you need to ask 'would straight bball be any better for them?')

This. Well said, Chuck.

Like it or not, the System can be a real shot in the arm for recruiting, especially for a school that's handicapped by location, academic status, finances, etc. George Barber won't really be giving it a fair shot unless he commits himself to at least a couple of recruiting cycles with it.

i don't know that he dumps it but needs IMHO to modify approach.  I just do not think the end of the end of the bench has what it takes, yet, to play at this level let alone "the system". Against IWU, I thought he had some real talent in the first group of starters and about three or four in the next five. I would adjust with the players I have.

It should be noted that the Arseneault System is not totally inflexible. Even Arseneault himself will tinker with it slightly from one season to the next, depending upon what sort of talent he has at Grinnell. And WUH indicated that Barber seems to be willing to tinker with it as well at Greenville.

Carroll only shot one three pointer (they missed) but shot 69 percent from the field.

In talking to a coach who has/will be opposing Greenville's system, one bit of 99% mandatory strategy is YOU DON'T SHOOT 3's VS THE SYSTEM... the system chases the ball all over the court.. any kind of good ball control/passing should result in layups....

That's usually the case, as long-time Grinnell observers know (and as WUH's Greenville research bears out). But there are some circumstances in which shooting the trey against a System team is warranted. A good case in point was the women's game I saw on Saturday, North Park @ North Central. This is the fourth season that NCC has used the System, so the current Cardinals have all been recruited for it and are used to it; they operate it with high proficiency in terms of ball movement and being where they're supposed to be, but their talent level is a little down from last season's 22-6, D3 tourney squad. Now, NPU runs a very effective high-low double post offense, since the Vikings have two very mobile and proficient bigs. With two opposing players who are always off the perimeter as well as in the middle of the floor, the trapping halfcourt defense that NCC (and System teams in general) uses can only work against three opposing players at a time. By getting the ball into the high post, North Park was able to either run the high-low or kick out to whichever perimeter player was left open by the trap. NPU coach Amanda Crockett has three guards whom she feels comfortable with taking the trey in any situation. Those three had the green light on Saturday night ... and they went 9-17 from downtown, with all 17 of those shots being about as wide-open as a shot can possibly get in the halfcourt.

So, yeah, under normal circumstances the rule of thumb is to avoid shooting treys against a System team; you hang on to the ball if you don't get the easy press-breaker gimme, and you work for the eventual layup that the overplay or the traps will give you if you're patient and protective enough. But once in a while certain teams will find it advantageous to take the trey against a System team in certain circumstances. As with everything in basketball, there's exceptions to just about every rule.

[hopefan]

Webster has an 'on' night from the get go, big early lead over Eureka... Eureka gets hot in lat 6 or 7 minutes with 3's, but can't stop Webster from scoring.. gets as close as 10, but that's it.... some thoughts.

I remember the high expectations of Websters 3 guard recruiting class several years ago...Etter, Moore, Odjo... For the most part, those expectations hadn't been met... all 3 good loyal hard players, but not jumping out as guys who control the game.. last night, Expectations got met...All 3 double figure scoring, Etter more aggressive with the ball, Odjo hitting some shots, Moore good shot selection..combined 13 for 24, only 1 turnover..

nice job by mix of Webster forwards not named Ward, athletic, to the basket group...Crenshaw, Evans, Turner, Henry, Milligan all gaining court time experience in 3, 4 5 positions... little used Turner impressed last night with a couple of quick 3s... rotating these guys around , spelling Walton, while Ward gets 30-35 minutes seems to be working well.. defense getting better... Ward of course is the leader, playing very well getting good shots...

Bad news... WOTS says Davian Joseph, who had been starting at the 4 spot for Webster with very positive results, will not see action in the second semester... here's hoping he's able to return next year.. he was the perfect fit...

Although Eureka outrebounded Webster, it seemed Webster was the dominant team in the paint... Frosh Wiegand seemed intimidated inside, missed a large number of close in shots badly.. needs to learn better body control, how to get to the line...
Feehan quickly becoming one of my favorite SLIAC players.. quietly goes about things, maneuvers for shots..I thought he got bad calls on a couple of offensive fouls where he did pull up, made minimal contact, as compared to going right thru the defensive player...
Another fun one to watch is Hank Thomas...off the bench, he comes in firing, doesn't stop moving..Reminds me a little of Spalding's Brandon Goeing's game..

Eureka really needs to find some size, just no scoring threat inside.. but wow, they do scrap....

Eureka's 7 man rotation almost seems to being squeezed to a 6 man rotation.. they're going to have to have a solid recruiting year this year to replace 3 senior starters....

I enjoy talking to Coach Chip Wilde.. I don't know much about small upstate Illinois schools.. interesting to hear about his recruiting angles, what JC's are likely to be open to sending kids his way....

Who knows how to get to Principia if River Road is closed due to flooding.... I may have to learn tonight...they're hosting Blackburn

[hopefan]

By the way, when are you going to go over to the Top 25 thread and defend the SLIAC?

Tough to defend.. need a top notch lawyer... where's the 'Good Wife'?   

[WUPHF]

It should be noted that the Arseneault System is not totally inflexible. Even Arseneault himself will tinker with it slightly from one season to the next, depending upon what sort of talent he has at Grinnell.

Or, depending on how many records he wants to break...

[hopefan]

I'm already looking forward to Fontbonne at Webster tomorrow night... guys and ladies games... after seeing Fontbonne win 2 on Saturday and Webster win 2 last night, I'd give the Griffin ladies and the Gorlock men a slight edge.... SLIGHT.... but both of these games should be thrillers... don't know if either school will have students back in class yet, but wish we could see a big enthusiastic crowd for these games... KEEP THE RIVALRY ALIVE!!!

[y_jack_lok]

I remember the high expectations of Websters 3 guard recruiting class several years ago...Etter, Moore, Odjo... For the most part, those expectations hadn't been met... all 3 good loyal hard players, but not jumping out as guys who control the game.. last night, Expectations got met...All 3 double figure scoring, Etter more aggressive with the ball, Odjo hitting some shots, Moore good shot selection..combined 13 for 24, only 1 turnover..

For much of the 2nd half when Eureka would inbound the ball after a made basket by Webster they would let the ball roll past mid court before touching it, saving seconds they needed on the clock to extend the game in hopes of coming back. Finally, when Odjo came back in, he stayed in the back court and forced Eureka to pick up the ball sooner and use some clock to get the ball in the front court. I've seen lots of teams allow an opponent to save time the way Eureka did and I have never understood why they do that. I'd love to have some coach out there explain to my why they don't keep a player in the back court just to make the inbounding team use a little more clock in these situations. On Eureka's final inbound play of the game Odjo stayed back and the Eureka player inbounding the ball faked his pass to one player then passed to the other. Odjo read the change, and made a diving steal to take away Eureka's final possession. It was a thing of beauty born of sheer hustle. More players on more teams need to do that kind of thing more often. I remember Hollis Edwards getting numerous steals on opponents' inbound plays in his career by moving as though he was headed back up court then turning around and intercepting the ball. Xavier Dortch nearly did that once last night. Clearly it can't be done on every such play, but it's a great tactic worth trying more often than most teams do -- at least it seems so to me.