MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[augie77]

As an Augustana fan I'm taking nothing for granted. Just curious though--are there historic results of a system team knocking off a "power team"?  I wouldn't want my Vikings to be the first. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

As an Augustana fan I'm taking nothing for granted. Just curious though--are there historic results of a system team knocking off a "power team"?  I wouldn't want my Vikings to be the first. 

Maybe Grinnell way back, but it's been a while since a system team even won a tournament game.  I know Rhodes gave Whitman a little trouble to start the game last year, but nothing major.

[iwumichigander]

If Augustana beats Greenville they have to be concerned about how much energy they have left for Saturday night.

Expending energy would be an Augustana concern I would think.  Augustana should be able to handle Greenville as Augie has the guards to handle the pressure and transition.  I would not expect Micah Martin to play much in this game as he does have an MCL injury but cleared to play.  If I were Augie I would try to save him.  And, Augie has the components to go deep on their bench to handle the pace.

[sac]

If Augustana beats Greenville they have to be concerned about how much energy they have left for Saturday night.

Possibly but neither Augsburg or Hope use their benches very much either.

[Gregory Sager]

CCIW posters are showing little respect for any system team, and are throwing up historical results for that support... but history doesn't always repeat itself...  wow would I love to see the comments if Greenville.....    nah, couldn't happen, could it.....I hope, if nothing else, just for a couple minutes, that Greenville is relly able to put it to them.....

The System isn't a cure-all. Even Dave Arseneault would admit as much. It can make a team more competitive, but it can't bridge a significant gulf in talent. And, trust me, there is a significant gulf in talent between Augustana and Greenville.

Leaving aside the fact that I am a CCIW guy, I certainly have a soft spot for the underdog, and I happen to like Greenville. I have friends who went there, and I like the institution. It certainly wouldn't tear me up inside if Greenville sprung the upset of the century. I just don't see it as any distinct sort of possibility.

That would be quite the feat. Maybe the shock to the System (pun intended) would throw them off enough that Greenville could make things interesting. You know what they say, the closer the game is at the end, the nerves start kicking in for the favored team. The closer the game, the more confidence the underdog gets. I would love to see an upset just because that's what the tournament is all about.

With the possible exception of Williams, there is no team in the field of 64 that has more March experience than Augustana. Four Augie starters started in last season's national championship game; the other starter and two of the reserves came off of the bench in that game; and a couple of the starters were rotation regulars on the team that reached the Elite Eight the season before last. Sorry, but I don't see this Augie team being rattled by anything. I can certainly foresee Augie losing somewhere between now and the nets being cut down in the Salem Civic Center, because the Doggies are far from invulnerable. But I can't picture "the nerves start kicking in" just because Greenville remains within shouting distance in the second half, should that come to pass.

If Augustana beats Greenville they have to be concerned about how much energy they have left for Saturday night.

There is that, but, as I said in the MIAA room, the advantage that Augustana has is that Grey Giovanine plays a deep rotation as a matter of course. The one adjustment he may have to make is to tweak his roster so that it's not as loaded down with 6'7+ centers -- he has no fewer than five of those guys that he's used extensively this season (6'11, 240 Micah Martin; 6'9, 221 Donovan Ferguson; 6'9, 207 Roman Youngblut; 6'9, 260 A.J. Dollmeyer; and 6'7, 258 Andy McLaughlin), and, as Ryan said, that's waaay too many aircraft carriers to use against the System -- and he has more guards available.

As an Augustana fan I'm taking nothing for granted. Just curious though--are there historic results of a system team knocking off a "power team"?  I wouldn't want my Vikings to be the first. 

I honestly can't think of one. Of course, nobody -- power team or not -- has ever wanted to play Grinnell (less out of fear than annoyance), so it's not as though the Pioneers have ever had a lot of opportunities. They've spent most of the Arseneault era being shunned by other D3 schools in terms of scheduling ... which doesn't seem to have ever fazed Dave Arseneault, as it's meant more opportunities for Grinnell to play Bible colleges and thus rack up national scoring and assist records.

Maybe Grinnell way back, but it's been a while since a system team even won a tournament game.  I know Rhodes gave Whitman a little trouble to start the game last year, but nothing major.

No System team has ever won a tournament game. Neither Emory & Henry nor Redlands ever made the dance while running the System, and, of course, this will be Greenville's maiden voyage in the D3 tourney. Grinnell has made it twice, losing in the first round both times:

1996: Wheaton 131, Grinnell 117
2001: Illinois Wesleyan 132, Grinnell 91

(Fun fact for the day: Former Millikin head coach Matt Nadelhoffer had a triple-double for Wheaton in the then-Crusaders' '96 win over Grinnell in the opening round. I'm not certain how many triple-doubles have been achieved in D3 tourney play, but I know about that one. He had a 15-11-20 game that day, and his 20 assists against the Pioneers is still the D3 tourney record. Wheaton had lost its leading scorer, Jason Senik (20.8 ppg), to a season-ending knee injury in practice just two or three days before the tourney opener against Grinnell.)

On the other hand, I would challenge Ryan's assertion that the trouble Rhodes gave Whitman last March in that opening-round contest in Walla Walla was "nothing major." In fact, the performance by Rhodes in that game is actually the best showing that the System has ever had in the tourney. Whitman beat the Lynx, 111-98, but the Blues didn't manage to pull away until the final ninety seconds. It was still a two-possession game with under four minutes to go, and it was an eight-point game with under two minutes left -- and one thing we know about the System is that an eight-point lead can vanish in the blink of an eye in a System game. If any System proponent ever wanted to hang his hat on a result, it'd be that game.

[WUPHF]

I watched that Rhodes-Whitman game...it was more or less the last game going when I clicked on the live stream.  And, Tyler Gee was fun to watch for reasons I cannot explain.

My memory may be failing, but I think Rhodes had a few highly regrettable turnovers down the stretch.  They seemed to lose their composure in the waning minutes.  It happens.

[Titan Q]

There is that, but, as I said in the MIAA room, the advantage that Augustana has is that Grey Giovanine plays a deep rotation as a matter of course. The one adjustment he may have to make is to tweak his roster so that it's not as loaded down with 6'7+ centers -- he has no fewer than five of those guys that he's used extensively this season (6'11, 240 Micah Martin; 6'9, 221 Donovan Ferguson; 6'9, 207 Roman Youngblut; 6'9, 260 A.J. Dollmeyer; and 6'7, 258 Andy McLaughlin), and, as Ryan said, that's waaay too many aircraft carriers to use against the System -- and he has more guards available.

The thing about The System is that it forces you to play completely differently than any other game.  And I agree, Grey Giovanine is going to have to play different personnel vs Greenville than he has all season long.  Augie's big guys (the 5s) really don't fit this game at all.

Honestly, I don't think Augie is equipped all that well to face The System.  Outside of Nolan Ebel, I don't associate Augie with great ball-handling.  When Greenville takes it out of Ebel's hands, I'm interested to see what happens.

As I look at this game, Augie's 2 biggest competitive advantages are sort of minimized:

1. Their tremendous halfcourt defense.  The Vikings will defend Greenville better than anyone all season long...but Greenville is used to throwing up crazy shots.  That's what they do.  Augie's ability to force a team like North Central or IWU to grind really hard for a good shot in the halfcourt offense is kind of out the window...because Greenville will just chuck it up.

2. Their low post size -- again, I'm not sure they can afford to play all of these guys.  They won't be able to guard Greenville's 4/5 guys on the perimeter, and they can't dribble.  Against The System everyone has to be able to dribble.

Augie will win this game, but it's an interesting Xs and Os matchup.  Two very opposite styles of basketball.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

A lot of coaches tell me it takes two to three games to get out from a System game. How have teams who have played System teams done in their next game... and in the tournament, by chance? I can't remember everything. LOL

[Gregory Sager]

In '96 Wheaton got hammered in the second round by Wash U, 93-75. The System game that Wheaton had had to play the night before likely had something to do with that large margin of victory for the Bears, but you can argue that the absence of Jason Senik had a lot to do with it, too. Wash U went on to beat Christopher Newport in the sectional semis before falling to eventual third-place finisher Illinois Wesleyan in the sectional final.

In '01, Illinois Wesleyan beat Wartburg, 65-60, the night after dispatching Grinnell. That was a good Knights team; it went into that game ranked 12th in the d3hoops.com poll, while IWU was 17th. I didn't see the game, so I'll let Bob discuss whether or not the Titans had any wear-and-tear on their game from the night before. The Titans went on to beat Elmhurst and Chicago in two close games in the sectionals held at old Crown Field House at the U of C (I saw both games) before again finishing third in the nation by losing to Horace Jenkins's William Paterson team in the national semis in Salem.

Last year Whitman struggled with Claremont-Mudd-Scripps the night after facing Rhodes, as the Blues beat the Stags in a hotly-contested 79-73 contest. The following weekend in Marietta, OH, the Blues breezed past Hardin-Simmons, 102-82, and nipped Rochester, 91-87 (you called those games, didn't you, Dave?), before succumbing to Babson in the national semis in Salem, 91-85.

[iwumichigander]

I will weigh in the Grinnell game - it did take a little out of the Titans.  IWU was well prepared for Grinnell. 
It was the prep to get ready for Grinnell that was time consuming.  For example, practices were five on six to add an extra defender.  A six guy was placed at mid court to add pressure as a defender. We even ran a couple of four offensive guys and six defenders to stimulate extra pressure to try to value the ball and turnover prevention. 
The team was coached to grab every ball on made shots - put it on the floor, hand it to the referee or hold it - anything to stop Grinnell from inbounding to prevent them using fish legs to push the ball up the court.
You get the idea - the prep and practices took the team and coaches out of their normal game plan prep and practices.  Fortunately, Grinnell was the first round and first game.  It would have more difficult had we faced Grinnell in the send game of the first round.

[ecreddevils]

There is that, but, as I said in the MIAA room, the advantage that Augustana has is that Grey Giovanine plays a deep rotation as a matter of course. The one adjustment he may have to make is to tweak his roster so that it's not as loaded down with 6'7+ centers -- he has no fewer than five of those guys that he's used extensively this season (6'11, 240 Micah Martin; 6'9, 221 Donovan Ferguson; 6'9, 207 Roman Youngblut; 6'9, 260 A.J. Dollmeyer; and 6'7, 258 Andy McLaughlin), and, as Ryan said, that's waaay too many aircraft carriers to use against the System -- and he has more guards available.

The thing about The System is that it forces you to play completely differently than any other game.  And I agree, Grey Giovanine is going to have to play different personnel vs Greenville than he has all season long.  Augie's big guys (the 5s) really don't fit this game at all.

Honestly, I don't think Augie is equipped all that well to face The System.  Outside of Nolan Ebel, I don't associate Augie with great ball-handling.  When Greenville takes it out of Ebel's hands, I'm interested to see what happens.

As I look at this game, Augie's 2 biggest competitive advantages are sort of minimized:

1. Their tremendous halfcourt defense.  The Vikings will defend Greenville better than anyone all season long...but Greenville is used to throwing up crazy shots.  That's what they do.  Augie's ability to force a team like North Central or IWU to grind really hard for a good shot in the halfcourt offense is kind of out the window...because Greenville will just chuck it up.

2. Their low post size -- again, I'm not sure they can afford to play all of these guys.  They won't be able to guard Greenville's 4/5 guys on the perimeter, and they can't dribble.  Against The System everyone has to be able to dribble.

Augie will win this game, but it's an interesting Xs and Os matchup.  Two very opposite styles of basketball.

You have to take what a system team gives you.  You need a couple of quality ball handlers, once you get across half court attack the rim quickly, kick on collapses.  This Greenville team is good, but doesn't always hit The System goal of 32 forced turnovers per game.  A good team that can advance the ball will punish them in the half court. 

Eureka easily handled Greenville at home, but EC was used to attacking out of an uptempo flow. Also, by being aggressive to the rim, we got to the line and went 28/36, a +14 free throw advantage.  EC lost on the road 111-97, only went 15-29 from the line for +8.   

I would guess Augie is just a bit too talented, will handle the pressure and win this by 20+.

[hopefan]

Congrats to Iowa Wesleyan's Brock Butler and Mitch Drey for receiving the USCAA's All-American honors.   Butler was First Team, Drey Honorable Mention.

I've got my fingers crossed that Butler and Eureka's Shea Feehan are recognized in D3hoops All Region teams... it's a tough field to make every year when being measured vs WIAC, CCIW, NACC, and MWC players, along with Wash U...

and then there are the ultra faint dreams of All-America.....

[Greek Tragedy]

Congrats to Iowa Wesleyan's Brock Butler and Mitch Drey for receiving the USCAA's All-American honors.   Butler was First Team, Drey Honorable Mention.

I've got my fingers crossed that Butler and Eureka's Shea Feehan are recognized in D3hoops All Region teams... it's a tough field to make every year when being measured vs WIAC, CCIW, NACC, and MWC players, along with Wash U...

and then there are the ultra faint dreams of All-America.....

In my All-American predictions pool, I had Feehan on my list. I think FC Grizzlies did too. He missed a few games and wasn't himself another game or two. Had Eureka won the league and made the NCAAs, that would've been enough to get him in, IMO.

[hopefan]

Well, as Sager said... I got my wish... we sure had 'em goin', and for more than a couple minutes... a tremendous first half... and, as seemingly usual the last 4/5/6 years, more respect gained for the SLIAC.... we just have to get over the hump and win one of these games...

Please Shea Feehan, come back next year... it should be Eureka's opportunity next year if you do.... or, another opportunity for Greenville..... or possibly even Westminster... I think the rest of the pack will still be a year away.....

You know, next year could be a fantastic year in the SLIAC....

[Gregory Sager]

Lieb, Caldozo, and McLean are the only seniors listed on the Greenville roster, hopefan, and none of them were major contributors. Feehan or no Feehan for Eureka, I'd be very surprised if the Panthers aren't even better next season than they were this season.