MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

At all costs?

I don't know about at ALL costs, but when you intentionally foul while UP by 50+ points just so you can score again, it doesn't pass the smell test.

Sure. Totally something to discuss and debate, but fouling on a couple of possessions late in the game is NOT all costs. (And I recognize you were not the one who stated it that way.)

[hopefan]

At all costs?

I don't know about at ALL costs, but when you intentionally foul while UP by 50+ points just so you can score again, it doesn't pass the smell test.

Just something their head coach told me as he debated this score in his head during the game - they were leading by more than 40 against an opponent recently and they let off the press. That team stormed back to make it a 12 point game. In a System game, it is hard to backoff and suddenly play a different game just because the scoreboard says 50. Furthermore, their opponent (Fontbonne) took them to 2OT last year in another record-shattering game.

I am the first to be critical of games when teams take advantage of their opponents, but this isn't one of those in my opinion. Sure, they were going for 200 ... but are you all just as disappointed when a team closing in on 100 is doing the same thing? System game getting to 200 is like a regular team in the 60s getting to 100 ... they both will get excited.

"Not passing the smell test" is what Lincoln did in 2006 when they won 201-78. They played their starters more than their reserves in the second half and their All-American was in shooting threes late in the game. That wasn't a contest from the moment the ball was tipped up (their coach told me "he doesn't look at scoreboards during games" SMH). In this case, I don't think the circumstances are "equal" to what doesn't or doesn't stink. Looking through the box score and PBP ... for the most part the game was just like any other System game which Greenville has been playing this season.

Coach Barber discusses the game tonight on Hoopsville - you should tune in.

It might be interesting to invite the Fontbonne coach to speak too...

Dave, you are wrong on this... I feel very strongly about that.... I will not be tuning in, because again, when I feel things go awry in D3, it upsets me... the Bluffton-Ohio Midwestern folly upsets me, and making a guy a hero who embarrasses weaker teams, especially weaker teams in conference, upsets me...

[WUPHF]

I am the first to be critical of games when teams take advantage of their opponents, but this isn't one of those in my opinion. Sure, they were going for 200 ... but are you all just as disappointed when a team closing in on 100 is doing the same thing? System game getting to 200 is like a regular team in the 60s getting to 100 ... they both will get excited.

I am not sure if the 100 point comparison works here.

Teams score 100 points every day.

[ecreddevils]

fontbonne is a legitimate opponent.  it should be clear by barber's words that the goal is not to show anyone up, but to play the game a certain way and score as much as is possible in the allotted 40 minutes.   in my opinion, greenville has nothing to apologize for.

[Mr. Ypsi]

fontbonne is a legitimate opponent.  it should be clear by barber's words that the goal is not to show anyone up, but to play the game a certain way and score as much as is possible in the allotted 40 minutes.   in my opinion, greenville has nothing to apologize for.

Agree totally with most of your post; disagree strongly with the last part.  I have no beef with 'the system', and agree that Barber did not do it to 'show up' Fontbonne.  My vehement disagreement is with the final seconds.  To become SO fixated on 200 that you intentionally foul, TWICE, in the final seconds with a 50-point lead just so you can get your hands on the ball again disgusts me.  I don't know Coach Barber (and he may be a wonderful man, for all I know), but I think he really laid a turd on this one.

[Greek Tragedy]

fontbonne is a legitimate opponent.  it should be clear by barber's words that the goal is not to show anyone up, but to play the game a certain way and score as much as is possible in the allotted 40 minutes.   in my opinion, greenville has nothing to apologize for.

Agree totally with most of your post; disagree strongly with the last part.  I have no beef with 'the system', and agree that Barber did not do it to 'show up' Fontbonne.  My vehement disagreement is with the final seconds.  To become SO fixated on 200 that you intentionally foul, TWICE, in the final seconds with a 50-point lead just so you can get your hands on the ball again disgusts me.  I don't know Coach Barber (and he may be a wonderful man, for all I know), but I think he really laid a turd on this one.

Acts like this is what gives Grinnell a bad name. Don't be Grinnell. But the difference is, they've done this multiple times, trying to break records...albeit against weak competition. At least Fontbonne is a conference opponent. Grinnell usually does it against non-D3 schools.

[Gregory Sager]

At all costs?

I don't know about at ALL costs, but when you intentionally foul while UP by 50+ points just so you can score again, it doesn't pass the smell test.

Just something their head coach told me as he debated this score in his head during the game - they were leading by more than 40 against an opponent recently and they let off the press. That team stormed back to make it a 12 point game. In a System game, it is hard to backoff and suddenly play a different game just because the scoreboard says 50. Furthermore, their opponent (Fontbonne) took them to 2OT last year in another record-shattering game.

Neither point you're making is relevant, Dave. Greenville was up by 50 points in the final minute of the game, so taking the foot off of the gas pedal by having the Panthers dribble out a final possession and/or not trying to steal the ball back or unintentionally-intentionally foul would not have resulted in some amazing Griffins comeback. And last season was last season.

No, this wasn't nearly as egregious as what Dave Arseneault had Grinnell do to all of those Bible colleges in order to set records, or what Lincoln did to OSU-Marion. But it definitely passes the smell test. I've watched the final minute of FU @ GU several times now. What Greenville did in the waning seconds of the game the other night ... smelled.

I'm with hopefan and Chuck on this. This was the wrong thing to do, and I would hope that George Barber -- whom I greatly respect -- could see that. And I agree with Tom as well that this makes Greenville look like Grinnell in terms of unsportsmanlike behavior. And you should not want to look like Grinnell in that regard. As Tom said, "Don't be Grinnell."

[GU1999]

Both teams consented to the pace of play.  Pace was insane.  Being upset with 196-200 difference comes off as a little petty.  Basketball is fun and that atmosphere was fun.  Even FU tried to score again at the buzzer. 

As for the handshakes, the video clearly shows that the FU team lined up for roughly one second while the celebration was taking place and then almost immediately went to the locker room.  Coaches did walk the line and Coach Thornhill clearly expresses something to Coach Barber as he walked away.l which look like frustration. 

The Star Tribune picked it up and the comments section look a lot like our conversations. 

A few Reddits too.  I think saw Hopefan on one sharing info about the game and the system, 

[hopefan]

Both teams consented to the pace of play.  Pace was insane.  Being upset with 196-200 difference comes off as a little petty.  Basketball is fun and that atmosphere was fun.  Even FU tried to score again at the buzzer. 

As for the handshakes, the video clearly shows that the FU team lined up for roughly one second while the celebration was taking place and then almost immediately went to the locker room.  Coaches did walk the line and Coach Thornhill clearly expresses something to Coach Barber as he walked away.l which look like frustration. 

The Star Tribune picked it up and the comments section look a lot like our conversations. 

A few Reddits too.  I think saw Hopefan on one sharing info about the game and the system,

Hopefan is an old fogie...what the heck is reddit?  I post here in D3hoops... period...  can't even figure out all that tweetin'!!!

[WUPHF]

Hopefan is an old fogie...what the heck is reddit?

I had a good laugh when I read that.

[allamericanredhead]

Hope fan I AM BACK  just for now. I love how you keep this board up to date. I would give anything to hear from Denny once more, especially after the Greenville game. Lee's teams were never known for defense but even I can't imagine giving up 200 points !!!. All those times Denny  would public swear of the board and then come back under a new name   Biggest homer who ever graced this board, GOD bless him.

[WUPHF]

Well, look what the cat dragged in!

Holy cow!

Congratulations on your induction in to the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame last year or the year before. Legends!

[jaybird44]

An entertaining back-and-forth discussion.  Since I have not had the chance to see Greenville play an entire game either in person or online, I probably ought to refrain from offering a lot of opinions about the merits/evils of The System.  When Greenville visits Webster on Feb. 16, I hope to be in the gym to watch this phenomenon up close and personal...ABC Wide World of Sports style.

The old-school part of me looks down on teams that try to score, score, score with a big lead in the last couple of minutes.  But, perhaps this generation of younger fans is not concerned much about that at all.  Live for today, and karma be damned.  I must admit, if I'm a Greenville player and the chance is there to get to 200 points, it would be tempting to pursue it...if only to be able to relive history with teammates at team reunions. 

But, I'm sure that those players know in the back of their minds that you can live and die by your own sword...and an opponent could come along after this 200 game that will have the chance to put a bag of burning poo on Greenville's front porch and ring the doorbell late in a game.  The chances you take when you violate the basketball commandment, "Thou shalt not run up the score on thy opponent."

I am intrigued about a couple of things...first, what are fellow SLIAC schools doing with regards to recruiting, that could dull the impact of Greenville's style of play?  What kind of players thrive at Greenville?  Do you try and get some for your own and give the Panthers a bit of their own medicine?  Or try and get talented offensive players who can beat Greenville using conventional means?  Or just swallow a bitter pill twice a season and accept the consequences and your fate?  For the conference schools without the means to have large rosters, I could see that Greenville's methods year after year would cause a high degree of anxiety/anger/disgust among those coaches.

Second, I am more fascinated about this...what long-term effect does playing a "System" opponent have on your players?  Is there a hangover that persists into the next game (or two or three) on your system?  I would think that even if you beat Greenville in the conference or NCAA Tournament...and you have a game to play the next day to win the tournament or advance to the next round...the negative carryover effects in theory could be tough to keep at arm's length.  Physical and mental fatigue among ALL of your players, bad habits that come from straying too far from your normal mode of operation, and a lack of the usual patience would all seem to be real concerns for a head coach.

I would like to interview those head coaches to see what they say about that...

[Gregory Sager]

Both teams consented to the pace of play.  Pace was insane.

That's not relevant to the final thirty seconds of the game, though.

Being upset with 196-200 difference comes off as a little petty.

That's a strawman argument. Nobody's upset about the difference between 196 and 200. What's upsetting people is that George Barber didn't follow the unwritten sportsmanship protocol regarding management of the end of a game that has long since been decided.

Basketball is fun and that atmosphere was fun.

True, but, again, that's not relevant to the subject of sportsmanship.

Even FU tried to score again at the buzzer. 

This goes to something that George said both in his Daily Dose apologia and on Hoopsville tonight: The other team kept playing hard, so why shouldn't we? But the thing is, that doesn't justify deliberately choosing not to take the air out of the ball and end the game. You can't control what the other team does, but you can control what your team does -- or, if one of your players does the wrong thing at the end of a game in this kind of situation (as happened at North Park a couple of seasons ago), you inform the other coach in the handshake line that the player did not follow your instructions and will be disciplined for showing poor sportsmanship.

The protocol is simple: If you have a secure lead when the shot clock is turned off at the end of a game, you hold the ball. If you hold the ball at the end, your opponent may try to steal it. So you either play keepaway or you accept the foul and go to the FT line. Beyond that, though, after the Panthers refused to hold the ball and instead scored the bucket that gave them 198, George immediately did two things that seem to have gotten the goat of FU coach Lance Thornhill and a fair number of other people even more than refusing to dribble out the clock:

!) He called a timeout with 10.5 seconds remaining with his team ahead by 52 points for the expressed purpose of instructing his team rather than simply getting end-of-the-bench players into the game; and
2) In that timeout, he instructed his team to foul in order to get the ball back and take more shots.

As for the handshakes, the video clearly shows that the FU team lined up for roughly one second while the celebration was taking place and then almost immediately went to the locker room.  Coaches did walk the line and Coach Thornhill clearly expresses something to Coach Barber as he walked away.l which look like frustration.

Yeah, the Griffins did the right thing. It's always a bit confusing to be the players on the other team when the floor is rushed. Do you stand around and wait for the celebration to end, not knowing how long it will take? Do you just walk off the floor and let them have their moment? That's a hard call. I think that the Griffins did the right thing: They waited a moment or two, realized that there was going to be a lengthy delay before the Panthers could form a handshake line, and so they left the floor so that the Panthers and their fellow GU students could have their celebration.

As for Coach Thornhill, he was clearly not happy with George Barber. As hopefan pointed out on Saturday night, you could see him glaring at his opposite number during that final thirty seconds or so.

[hopefan]

AllAmerican Red... unbelievable... betcha Denny is lovin' this from up above....

incidentally, Coach Lee McKinney couldn't figure out how to beat the system   Jan 5, 2009    Grinnell 163, Fontbonne 145