MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WUPHF]

Johari Dix was on the second team in his final two seasons, right?

Right or wrong, it may mean that he was not up for consideration.

Also, I watched the interview and I cannot call it the sly-ack.

[Gregory Sager]

I've never seen anybody in this room share with the rest of us the general consensus of the league's constituents as to how the league's acronym is pronounced. Is it "SLEE-ack" or "SLY-ack"?

I'd honestly like to know. I try to use the league pronunciations preferred by the people who are actual fans of the schools within that league ... although I admit that I have a devil of a time remembering to call the league up in the mitten "the Em Eye Double A," when everybody I know on this side of Lake Michigan calls it "the Em Eye A A."

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

^^^ Yes, the methodology seemed a bit limited. Stats achieved playing in The System seem harder to evaluate, though -- at least to me.

You'd think if its a conference award, though, its decided by people who watched games.  Some System players benefit from the System, but you can usually tell, by watching, who would also excel in a more traditional style of play.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I've never seen anybody in this room share with the rest of us the general consensus of the league's constituents as to how the league's acronym is pronounced. Is it "SLEE-ack" or "SLY-ack"?

I'd honestly like to know. I try to use the league pronunciations preferred by the people who are actual fans of the schools within that league ... although I admit that I have a devil of a time remembering to call the league up in the mitten "the Em Eye Double A," when everybody I know on this side of Lake Michigan calls it "the Em Eye A A."

I call it the Michigan conference, generally - its actually shorter to say that way.  Also, way, way back, I called the WIAC the "Wee-Ack" before I'd heard anyone say it out loud.  Then everyone seemed to call it the "Why-ack," so I went with that.  Now, it seems, I remember one of the WIAC head coaches saying "Wee-ack" lately.  Is that just to get under people's skin?

[GU1999]

^^^ Yes, the methodology seemed a bit limited. Stats achieved playing in The System seem harder to evaluate, though -- at least to me.

You'd think if its a conference award, though, its decided by people who watched games.  Some System players benefit from the System, but you can usually tell, by watching, who would also excel in a more traditional style of play.

You are certainly correct about that.  Those that watched knew.  Dix did get first team in 2018 and second in 2018.  He was all defense in in both years.  But, here is a sample of what this board had to say about the 2019 selections.  Which, of course, calls into question a methodology that is based solely on all conference.


GU1999:
"In related news, it will be interesting to see of the SLIAC coaches hold the 200 pt game against the GU elite in all-conference voting which should be revealed tonight. The ladies were announced last night on the first night of their tourney.

Wilcox is Hope's MOP.  Wilcox had a really good conference season on a very good team, but I do think that the numbers need a bit of analyzing.

For the comparison of my Hope's MOP and the two GU candidates, I am using conference season stats (certainly the better statistical portion Wilcox's season):

Wilcox (WU so) 15.3 ppg / 11.4 rpg / 2.6 bpg player with a 1.0 a:to and a shooting slash of 58.4/0.0 / 56.6.  This player played 34 minutes a game which helps normalize a bit for comparison sake with Dix & Williams (see below)  who play roughly 19 mins per game albeit at a high pace.

Dix (GU sr) with his conference numbers of 19.2 ppg/ 6.7 apg / 3.9 rpg / 3.6 spg / 2.7 a:to and a shooting slash of 46.5/35.7/71.9

Williams (GU jr) 25.3 ppg / 7.4 rpg (4.66 orpg) / 2.33 spg / .7 a:to and a shooting slash of 53.6 / 35.6 / 67.3

It would be really fun to see per possession played normalizing stats for each of these three as well as usage percentage stats but I have not seen this information aggregated anywhere.  Maybe the coaches have the benefit of Synergy or some other internal systems to help them with this when they do their voting, but I don't see it posted in a general manner anywhere on the conf or team sites.

Dix and Williams are 1st team caliber, along with Wilcox, Paulson and Tabb. I do however think that the MOP is Dix, even though he does not play for the regular season champ.

I would be most surprised however, if this award were given to Dix or Williams."

Hopefan:
"OK  hopefan can't keep quiet

The selection of Hayes  and Johnson to 1st team all conference, over Dix and Williams, or even over Tankins or Tabb, makes absolutely no sense to me..

Its obvious my cumulative Quality points, whether by total, or by Quality points per game, did not lead to that... not even close..

I looked at it another way..
if I arbitrarily set 3 or better quality points in a game as a very good to outstanding game.. how many of these did the individuals have?
Dix  11
Williams  10
Tankins  8
Tabb 8
Hayes  7    but Hayes never had a 4.5, or a 5 score...no super games
Johnson 6

How many games UNDER 2 did each have?  signifying only a fair, to lousy, game
Dix    3
Williams   3
Tankins   5
Tabb    6
Hayes    6
Johnson     8

in addition, let's compare Paulson and Wilcox for MVP
Wilcox  Very good to great games  12
Paulson  Very good to great games  8

Wilcox less than good games  3
Paulson less than good games  4

It may sound harsh, but Paulson basically won MVP over Wilcox because he shot.. a lot!!!  Yes Paulson averaged 26 and wilcox 15 ppg..BUT, their points per field goal attempted number was virtually identical!!!!!
And, while it was Paulson's job to control the ball, his Assists to turnover ratio was a poor 0.9.. in other words more turnovers than assists (and he had two scorers in Goodman and Davidson to get the ball to)
Wilcox's job was to rebound, and he did... 11.4 per game, as well as contributing 2.7 blocks per game...

NO CONTEST"

Greek:
"But, if you're comparing Paulson to Wilcox [for MOP], I'm probably giving it to Paulson. In fact, even before looking at your ratings, I may have given it to Dix (emp. added). He scored a lot, but also averaged almost 4 rebs a game, tons of assists and steals, and solid a/to ratio.

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ Watching players play (in person or online) definitely adds a dimension to making these selections beyond stats and awards alone. The last time I traveled to Greenville was before they started playing The System, though I did watch some games (or parts of some games) there online. I did see all their games played at Webster, however, including Slee/Sly-ack tournament games while Dix was playing. But I have a similar problem evaluating individual players in The System as I do evaluating their stats. Individual play gets lost (by me at least) in the speed and chaos of the games.

[GU1999]

No doubt it takes a bit of a trained eye to track system guys.  And there are cases at other system programs where stats are far too weird.  Kids playing all 40 minutes and taking 80 shots a game.  That is not GU.  Top guys play 18 minutes a game. My point stands that I would love to see (per possession or usage rate stats), but that is only for those who and have access to Synergy (or Synergy like tools) etc. 

The league had Dix as a first teamer in 2018.  Statistically, he was as good or better in 2019, on a team that won 14 league games again for the second year in a row. He should have been there again.  Anyway, enough about that.  He is just the example that came to mind first.

[RogK]

I've come around to the idea that consideration for a conference MVP should begin with the best player on the 1st place team, figuring he or she has done a lot (not all of it easily quantified) to help attain those victories.
Now that I've said that, I'll sneak back over to the women's basketball pages.

[WUPHF]

I've come around to the idea that consideration for a conference MVP should begin with the best player on the 1st place team, figuring he or she has done a lot (not all of it easily quantified) to help attain those victories.
Now that I've said that, I'll sneak back over to the women's basketball pages.

I am not saying that it is right, but I think this is how these teams are often determined.

I think the fact that Johari Dix was left off the first team as a senior left him off the all-Decade team, even if that decision was controversial or outright wrong.  Garbage in, garbage out.

The point about Greenville players averaging 20 minutes or so is well taken.

[y_jack_lok]

Just noticed on the SLIAC website this September 3rd Pantagraph article about former EC player Kyler Stork.
https://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/watch-now-former-normal-west-eureka-college-basketball-player-kyler-stork-heading-to-armenia-for/article_718aa586-1be4-5df2-9e3f-39fa635c70bb.html

[hopefan]

Let me tell you the MAIN reason that Greenville players were not on  first team all conference for the 2018-19 season... it's the same reason Coach Barber didn't win COY that season

anyone... anyone...

one reason..............   200-146, Greenville over Fontbonne... the night Greenville deliberately fouled TWICE in the last 20 seconds to get the ball back to run the score to 200... and far and away led the league in Technical fouls and abysmal behavior... they angered every coach in the conference... and those coaches are the voters for All Conference awards.....

By the way... right or wrong, I've always gone SLEEEE ak

[GU1999]

Yes!  Hopefan is back! 

And, of course, Hope is correct re 2019.   The coaches in 2019 held the "moonshot" game against the PLAYERS.  Hold it against the coach, no problem.  Holding it against the players is petty and lame, especially when that pettiness gets augmented by the bad methodology used for the decade team. 

Good reason to have the end of season votes made public.  A hint of accountability. 

[WUPHF]

As far as I am concerned, it has been settled...

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ We might as well re-litigate these old issues and talk about the past because the likelihood of having a new season to post about doesn't look promising.

[WUPHF]

I still think we get a few local games that are closed to the public. 

I am encouraged by the fact that several conferences in the the NAIA are playing volleyball and basketball and conferences such as the GLVC have committed to playing basketball as well.