MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Ralph Turner]

It never occurred to me that adding (or having) football at a D3 institution would pay for itself by attracting a larger population of male students paying tuition, room, board, and fees. Very interesting. Is that really the case in the majority of of D3 schools? And if so is there a point at which, in smaller institutions, it doesn't work?

Here is the list of recruits who are committed to Birmingham-Southern for its inaugural season.

2007 recruits

This might be considered as close to best case example as one might find.

[sully309]

I mentioned this in a previous post, but often times football alums are athletic departments' major donors. I know this is the case at Eureka where almost all of the football grandstand renovations were fund raised by football alums. If you think about it, you should have 10-25 graduating seniors from the football team each year, while other sports are significantly less. Football costs a lot to run, but with any loyalty whatsoever, this difference can be made up by fund raising.

Obviously for a new program, there are no football alums to draw from. This seems like a large undertaking for a small school. It's true that it could bring more male students to the school, but I'm not familiar with the statistics on whether that pays off for a new program.

[y_jack_lok]

I remember your previous post, eureka_sid. So the football alums support the athletic department, which certainly makes sense. And since there are more of them than from other sports, the importance to the athletic department of having a football program is evident. This is helping me understand the cost effectiveness of football at smaller schools. I guess, then, that if a school were to drop football it could be a bad financial decision for the institution, right?

[fcnews]

I can only speak for FU, but football has been considered for years. It has been a tough sell because it is not a break even. I don't see any SLIAC school bringing in 122 football recruits.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Also, we are assuming that these kids are paying for their education. I don't know everything about financial aid for the SLIAC's, but here's a go at it. I will use harsh stereotypes, but for a school in St. Louis, they must recruit from West County (wealthier) and not East St. Louis (poorer) if they expect the kid to pay for his own education. If the college covers any need-based aid (because federal aid might not cover the whole tuition) then the college isnt making any money (or at least not immediately). And if the student is smart enough, then there may be an academic scholarship to be covered. So of course football draws male student but we cant assume the 40,000 a pop per year directly into the school, in fact it may take some money away.

[y_jack_lok]

I guess it's like Pat Coleman said back on page 217 -- it varies too much to have a hard and fast rule. By that I take it he meant that there are just too many variables to really know, in a broad sense, how the financial dynamics of D3 footbal programs work for institutions in general. So each institution has to make its own assesment and decide what to do.

[Wydown Blvd.]

It never occurred to me that adding (or having) football at a D3 institution would pay for itself by attracting a larger population of male students paying tuition, room, board, and fees. Very interesting. Is that really the case in the majority of of D3 schools? And if so is there a point at which, in smaller institutions, it doesn't work?

i was responding to this post above (wow that may be my first use of the quote tool). but a larger male population is not necessarily a "larger population of male students paying tuition, room, board, and fees." but yeah Pats right, football economics are complex in d3.

[AndOne]

It never occurred to me that adding (or having) football at a D3 institution would pay for itself by attracting a larger population of male students paying tuition, room, board, and fees. Very interesting. Is that really the case in the majority of of D3 schools? And if so is there a point at which, in smaller institutions, it doesn't work?

i was responding to this post above (wow that may be my first use of the quote tool). but a larger male population is not necessarily a "larger population of male students paying tuition, room, board, and fees." but yeah Pats right, football economics are complex in d3.

Don't forget that most (recruited anyway) student-athletes in the "major" sports at the D3 level receive some sort of "package" which typically reduces the amount they pay below the full amount of tuition, room, board, etc. that the "regular" students pay. Thus, the possible increased revenue from X number of additional student-athletes is proportionally reduced by the sum total of the financial packages awarded. 

[Pat Coleman]

Yes, not forgotten.

Somewhere, I think, the discount rate is available for each school, though it may not be in a publicly accessible database.

I think it varies too much to really have a hard and fast rule. What's the average student truly paying at each school? The range is too wide.

[sully309]

I guess it's like Pat Coleman said back on page 217 -- it varies too much to have a hard and fast rule. By that I take it he meant that there are just too many variables to really know, in a broad sense, how the financial dynamics of D3 footbal programs work for institutions in general. So each institution has to make its own assesment and decide what to do.

Totally agree.

There are 2 almost unrelated issues here. Whether it makes sense for small schools like Eureka to continue having football (and in our case I believe it does) and whether a school like Fontbonne should add football. I'm not convinced that by simply adding sports a school can count on a likewise increase in enrollment. Sometimes rosters are filled out by students already on campus that were recruited there to play other sports or were there as students not playing a sport. In this case, the enrollment can increase, but not by as much as expected. I think given Fontbonne's demographics (disproportionately low number of male students), it would seem that a football squad there would HAVE to be mostly new recruits. Given a motivated coaching staff, this could work.

[pantherpride06]

Wow, it seems I go away and the "Woody Paige act-a-like" calls me a... donkey was it?  Wow.  Donkey or not, ask MacAttackII what it feels like to blow a 32 point lead at the Panther Den, or fcnews (my buddy) to get beat on a last second shot in the friendly confines of HJ Long Gymnasium.  Mr. Insider, you obviously don't realize what you are dealing with here.  Greenville has a 37-20 (.694) record at home the last five years.  We have been in some tight games and had some amazing games as well...

1/24/04 - Fontbonne d. Greenville 120-117 F/3OT
2/21/04 - Maryville d. Greenville 86-79 F (SLIAC Title Game / 1,000 attendance)
11/19/04 - Greenville d. Concordia (Ill.) 59-58 F
2/12/05 - Greenville d. MacMurray 136-107 F
2/11/06 - Greenville d. Blackburn 61-55 F (Blackburn #1 in SLIAC)
12/6/06 - Greenville d. Fontbonne 79-77 F
1/12/07 - Greenville d. MacMurray 88-86 F (GC Trailed 32 at one point)

Donkey I may be Mr. Insider, but I can rally the troups to victory in HJ Long Gym.  I may act a fool, but we win.  Don't we win at Greenville.  No doubt about that.

As for Football, I think it was a Great add for Greenville back in the late 80's (I think).  We had a roster of near 80 guys this past season as well as some managers and other student workers brought in to assist with the team.  We are also on the rise with our 2nd year coach Eric Hehman.  I'd love to see the likes of Fontbonne/Webster/Maryville join the football side of things.

I have to come back more often so I don't miss these blow ups by people!  I love it. 

Oh Woody Paige, you don't have enough points to stick around again... SEE YAS!

[fcnews]

Tonights Summer League games are at Webster University. I'll be looking forword to a report.

PantherPride - Football has helped GC, also Track. Track there has about the same numbers and costs alot less then other sports. FU is looking to open their football program in the 09-10 season.

Hopefan - Your great at digging up high school stats. Check the stats on Zak Dill. He was a senior in 04-05 from Bernie, MO.

[hopefan]

Now FC, I KNOW you are not going to equate whatever success Zack had at Bernie High School with potential success at Fontbonne!!

I base my opinion of Zack only on what I saw last year  -  when Fontbonne was - at times - really struggling at guard, Zack still rarely came off the bench, and when he did, from what I remember, made only limited contribution.  Particularly when Branch was struggling, if the coaching staff had confidence in him, or if he had come in and stood out in some facet of the game, I would have thought he would have gotten more minutes.   I think he still has to prove himself from the bottom rung of the ladder at the collegient level.  (not to say that he couldn't do just that)

[fcnews]

Well is Bernie smaller then Salem. Zack averaged like 25 in HS. You saw him after years lay off. He was 17-19 from the line in his limited action. I was just asking what his stats were compared to some of the others on here.

White and McCoy have shown small town players can excell at this level.

Where did the big kid from Eureka HS end up going ? MoBapt or Lindenwood?

FU plays Meremac's A Squad tonight.

[hopefan]

Hope the A squad is better than the Z squad they played last week!!!!

Think I'm giving up on summer league action - will have to wait till November

Hey FC  - speaking of old guys  (you)   -  can I really be going to my 40th
high school reunion next week?   GEESH   (of course one of our other writers hit his 40th 5 or 6 years ago.....)     Anyway, off to Pittsburgh Pa next week for the first time since our 20th...  Really looking forward to it.