MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Ralph Turner]

Legislation that D-III passed in 2007 permits a seamless transition to D-II.

D-III's, which enter the first D-II exploratory year, are allowed access to D-III  championships, providing the institution does not award athletic scholarships.   This allows a D-III seamless "return" to D-III, if the institution decides D-II is not for them.  Access to D-III championships is denied when the institution enters exploratory year #2 of D-II.

I believe that Maryville is probably anticipating their acceptance into D-II for Fall 2008.  (D-II is trying to grow as quickly as it can accept the members thru the process).  If Maryville does not give athletic scholarships until year #2 (cf., my comment on aid packages that are D-III legal), then they can compete in D-III.

The question for the Maryville women is whether someone will beat Maryville MO in 2008-09 and break the streak.

My only question about the Maryville situation is whether the peer institutions in the D-II conference to which Maryville wishes to go are more to their liking than the SLIAC?  Will the university really be better off?

The D-II's in Texas are a mixed bag. The Lone Star Conference is a very strong D-II conference and completely different in scope and focus than the ASC.  The Heartland Conference (created in about 1999) seems to playing catch-up to the more established LSC, which has been an ongoing concern since 1931.

[y_jack_lok]

Ralph, thanks for that very informative post.

My only question about the Maryville situation is whether the peer institutions in the D-II conference to which Maryville wishes to go are more to their liking than the SLAIC?  Will the university really be better off?

The excerpt above from your post is, I think, the question we are all wondering about.

[sully309]

Well, everything is still speculation at this point. Maryville is still in D-III and a member of the SLIAC until further notice. This is a D-III board and we all love this level, so it's easy to be critical of a move to D-II, but there are some pluses to moving as well. I'm sure an informed decision will be made. Thanks Ralph for info. I knew D-II was really trying to get more members, and that sounds like a good way to do it.

Good point, eureka_sid. And a question for you. I see  you made your post at about 6:15 a.m. today. Does that mean you stayed up all night or got up early this morning?

Actually got up early that day (and today)...very out of character for me. I can still pull off an all-nighter when needed though. How did my sleeping habits become such a concern on here 

[y_jack_lok]

Apologies, eureka_sid, if I got too personal. I'm used to seeing those 2 a.m. posts from you, so couldn't help but wonder. I hoped the  would indicate it was all meant as an attempt at humor -- a failed one, apparently.

[sully309]

No, no. I got you y_jak. It was my attempt at humor that failed. Don't worry about it.

[fcnews]

Insert sound of applause here....."                             ". Everyone posting on the last few pages get 1 +k ( as soon as I get a better signal). Great conversation thread.

I am guessing we have our answers on the MU situation by the first of June. I think the SLIAC will have the conferences best interest at the heart of their decision.

Fontbonne adds two more to the '08 class. One is Colton Hill, guard, Northwest House Springs. The second is a 6'5 wing, who has not signes all their financial aid package, I get you his name asap. He will be a big addition.

With Sheetz, Bailey and the player to be named soon, this will give FU 3 young 6'5 athletes that can score and defend. These guys will add alot of size and scoring ability coming off the bench. Add in a healthy 6'6 Mike Riva, who has been working out with Fogerty and Fournie since Christmas. And, is getting much stronger with the ball.

[Ralph Turner]

Maryville MO is exploring to D-II.

[hopefan]

Thanks for the update Ralph

Each time the subject comes up, I become more and more disappointed.

I am and will remain a true D3 fan - unfortunately, a move to D2 would take Maryville out of my scope of interest and enjoyment.

And the late decision date will really play havoc with the SLIAC's process of figuring out whether Maryville will be in or out as a championship qualifier next year.

I don't get it - Maryville is so solid as a SLIAC player - competitive in all sports, a reputible representative of the SLIAC and Division 3, with great rivlaries at this level.  Are a few scholarships going to make that much difference.  Are Maryville athletes going to receive more publicity in the St Louis market as a D2 school than they currently do?  Is there a D2hoops .com?

Very disappointing

[Gregory Sager]

I can't seem to find a written rationale behind Maryville's decision to switch divisions anywhere on the school's website. Many colleges and universities put their student newspapers online (that would be a logical place to look for a story about the switch) but Maryville isn't one of them.

[y_jack_lok]

If you should come across an explanation, please share it with us. All  of us out here in SLIAC land are asking ourselves that same question.

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks for the update Ralph

Each time the subject comes up, I become more and more disappointed.

I am and will remain a true D3 fan - unfortunately, a move to D2 would take Maryville out of my scope of interest and enjoyment.

And the late decision date will really play havoc with the SLIAC's process of figuring out whether Maryville will be in or out as a championship qualifier next year.

I don't get it - Maryville is so solid as a SLIAC player - competitive in all sports, a reputible representative of the SLIAC and Division 3, with great rivalries at this level.  Are a few scholarships going to make that much difference.  Are Maryville athletes going to receive more publicity in the St Louis market as a D2 school than they currently do?  Is there a D2hoops .com?

Very disappointing

I think that the unspoken issues that have prompted Maryville MO seek D-II are those of mission, vision and goals that the Board and Administration have set for the university.

How big are the fellow SLIAC schools?

What are the fellow SLIAC schools planning to do with their schools with respect to growth, peer institutions, endowments, mission of educational outreach, etc.

Where do the Maryville students come from?  Where does Maryville see itself in the next 10-20 years?

Is Maryville MO a SLIAC D-III by default? 

The answer on the website is that Maryville is eligible for all D-III championships, if they remain in compliance with D-III, unless the SLIAC votes otherwise.  If Maryville MO decides that they do not want to proceed with D-II, they can stay in D-III in June 2009.

Which D-II conference would Maryville join? Mid-American Intercollegiate Athletics Association? Great Lakes Valley Conference- West Division? 

Yes, there is a www.d2basketball.com. 

Thanks, Pat Coleman for the wonderful site that we have. 

[Ralph Turner]

I can't seem to find a written rationale behind Maryville's decision to switch divisions anywhere on the school's website. Many colleges and universities put their student newspapers online (that would be a logical place to look for a story about the switch) but Maryville isn't one of them.

Question and Answer

During July 2007, Dr. Mark Lombardi (President) and Tony Duckworth (Director of Athletics) began discussing how Athletics should be part of the Maryville University Strategic Plan.  The primary focus was on conference affiliation, division alignment, enrollment, institutional branding and image, and the student-athlete experience.  During September 2007, Dr. Lombardi appointed Dr. Nina Caldwell (V.P. of Student Life) to chair an Athletics Task Force to evaluate the future of Athletics at Maryville University.

During the upcoming month's, extensive research was compiled through the Department of Athletics and Athletics Task Force.  Tony Duckworth formally presented the data to the President's Advisory Council in December 2007 and to the Board of Trustees in January 2008.  In March 2007, Maryville submitted application to the NCAA for reclassification to NCAA Division II.

I went back to the website at Maryville MO and found this quote.

[hopefan]

I sent a brief, not unkind, note to Maryville AD Tony Duckworth, whom I had spoken with several times during the season, and to Matt Rogers, Maryville's Basketball Coach - registering my disappointment in the decision to move down to D2. 

I received a very nice note back from Tony Duckworth.  In it, the following quote: "D III has served us well, but given everything our institution is striving for in the future, D II fits our institutional strategic plan the best."

The only way to convince an old diehard D3 supporter like myself is to educate me - somewhere I need to see backup for that statement.  I said some things about D2 a while back that generated feedback supporting D2 from people I respect (aka Titan Q) - it educated me - and I hope in some media Maryville can explain itself - what is its strategic plan and how does D2 promote it?

I guess my attitude is this - if Maryville has made the decision, and will be using kids who have been recruited this school year with the lure of scholarship money in 2009-2010, they should not be eligible for Conference Tournament play in the 2008-2009 season.  It will be unfair to current team members, but it is the lot that MU has chosen. Being a lower level D3 conference, the beauty of the SLIAC is the competition generated by a very level playing field in many of its sports.  I do not want to see that field dirtied, not even for one year, not even by the team that I have supported for the last 6 or 7 years.  Winning is not that important, competition is....

[Gregory Sager]

I sent a brief, not unkind, note to Maryville AD Tony Duckworth, whom I had spoken with several times during the season, and to Matt Rogers, Maryville's Basketball Coach - registering my disappointment in the decision to move down to D2. 

I received a very nice note back from Tony Duckworth.  In it, the following quote: "D III has served us well, but given everything our institution is striving for in the future, D II fits our institutional strategic plan the best."

The only way to convince an old diehard D3 supporter like myself is to educate me - somewhere I need to see backup for that statement.  I said some things about D2 a while back that generated feedback supporting D2 from people I respect (aka Titan Q) - it educated me - and I hope in some media Maryville can explain itself - what is its strategic plan and how does D2 promote it?

This sort of explanation is what I was looking for, unsuccessfully. I did see the quote on the Maryville website that Ralph cited, but to my eyes it was kind of an "everything and nothing" sort of statement, the sort of PR boilerplate that is so beloved by institutional administrators. What I was looking for was specifics: How do Maryville's current D3 and SLIAC affiliations affect enrollment, institutional branding and image, and the student-athlete experience? And why would a change to D2 and to potential membership in an as-yet-unrevealed league affiliated with that division (if, indeed, Maryville has a bead on a new conference affiliation -- it's hard to imagine that the school's braintrust would've begun the transition process without doing the preliminary spadework on joining a new conference) better fit the school's strategic plan? These are the sorts of questions that tend to be answered in depth within newspaper articles, alumni magazine pieces, and released committee documents, but not within brief, vague, and jargon-filled press releases.

The quote Ralph cited about the conversations between Mark Lombardi and Tony Duckworth doesn't answer any questions; it simply invites more of them.

And, speaking as an uninvolved but curious bystander, to me it's not a matter of right or wrong or of good or bad in terms of the internal discussion regarding Maryville (as opposed to the external discussion regarding the SLIAC). Nobody is better equipped to ascertain Maryville's needs and to act upon them accordingly than its own administrators. I'd just like to know why it's moving to D2.

I guess my attitude is this - if Maryville has made the decision, and will be using kids who have been recruited this school year with the lure of scholarship money in 2009-2010, they should not be eligible for Conference Tournament play in the 2008-2009 season.  It will be unfair to current team members, but it is the lot that MU has chosen. Being a lower level D3 conference, the beauty of the SLIAC is the competition generated by a very level playing field in many of its sports.  I do not want to see that field dirtied, not even for one year, not even by the team that I have supported for the last 6 or 7 years.  Winning is not that important, competition is....

Your concerns re: the SLIAC are well-founded, Hopefan. If I was a supporter of a rival SLIAC school, or of the league as a whole the way that you are, I'd be making that same sort of demand in light of the possibility that Maryville is recruiting D2-level talent to enroll there this fall by using the inducement of future athletic scholarship money. There are two things that need to be taken into consideration, though: 1) The very real possibility exists that Maryville will be unable to meet D2's criteria during the probationary stage and will be forced to return to D3 (and I'm not sure what those criteria are), or that it will dip its toe into D2's waters and find them too cold and will then return to D3 of its own accord -- SLIAC fans have had a taste of that sort of failed trial period already with regard to Lincoln Christian; and 2) as has been pointed out already by this room's regulars, the SLIAC is not in a strong position with regard to external membership issues (i.e., fielding minimal numbers of participating schools in various D3-sanctioned sports in the wake of Maryville's incipient departure). This latter issue could be putting the SLIAC into a "beggars can't be choosers" situation when it comes to the possibility of levying penalties upon Maryville for distorting the competitive playing field of the league, or proactively expelling Maryville.

[Ralph Turner]

Greg's insightful post brings much to this conversation.

I thought that the accretion of the SLIAC with Lincoln Christian was a good thing.  They tried, it failed.  Adding Eureka was good, too.

I strongly agree with the affiliation arrangement with Huntingdon and LaGrange in football to attain an AQ!

Losing Maryville MO is completely different.  I think that it puts a huge question mark on the entire conference, whether appropriate or not.  I don't know the local situation that Maryville MO sees in its future.  That study by the administration must have determined that D-III was preventing the school from becoming what it could be or what the president wanted it to become.  Are the missions, visions and nature of the SLIAC institutions an impediment to the growth and prosperity of Maryville MO?  They must no longer consider Fontbonne, Webster or Westminster as peer institutions.

The closest D-II conference is the Great Lakes Valley Conference.  Going to D-II means that they are less likely to use athletic participation as an enrollment driver.  I am not familiar with D-II in that part of the country, but I wonder about the change in institutional financial aid packages from D-III merit/need to D-II "semi-pro" and that change in school culture that will accrue from that change.  If Maryville is so large that it can change its athletic/student-athlete culture, then it may work.  D-II is somewhat different in Texas.  On a D-III level, Birmingham-Southern left D-I to adopt the D-III model so it could grow from 1300 to 1800 students, by adding football and other sports, and by diverting that extra money in aid to scholarships for the student body in general.

My question is, what type of student does Maryville MO intend to attract to grow 15%/25%/33%/50% in a geographic area (St Louis) that is not growing by "leaps and bounds"?  This expansion of the school is occurring at a time of demographic contracture in the college age population.

In many ways, I am glad that there is a D-II, to siphon off schools that I think would dominate in D-III, e.g. the WIAC.  I just think that this event is not good for the SLIAC, and maybe not for Maryville MO.  If the conference has not had its spring meeting, then I wonder if the conference will vote to expel Maryville immediately.  The bad blood already may exist.  They will not need a D-II Maryville MO for scheduling games in the future.  If Maryville has complied with the letter of the SLIAC administrative procedures, then they may not be prohibited from post-season play in D-III.