MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hopefan]

TQ... does that hold even if he attended Louisville for 2 years?, or did he have to be a non student?

[y_jack_lok]

Let's just call Zimmerman a senior.

[dansand]

There's no clock for D3. UW-Platteville has a 28-year old forward named Joe Allen. After serving in the army, he was Heartland Conference Freshman of the Year at St. Mary's (TX-D2) in 2004-05 and a 1st team all-conference pick as a soph in 2005-06. Then he transferred to D1 UW-Milwaukee (having to sit out the 2006-07 season) but missed the 2007-08 season with an injury. Now he's at Platteville and I think he's listed as a senior, but if I understand the rule correctly, he'd still have 2 years of eligibility in D3.

Also, Augie had a running back named Kirk Sanders who lettered in 1984, 1985 and 1990!

Looks like the Zimmerman kid has only played three seasons, so he should be OK.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

Way to take hopefan through the McDonald's drive thru, Dan!

HaHa Q,

I saw a chance to relay a couple good anecdotes and I took it.

Also, looking at Joe Allen's situation again, I think he'd just have this year of eligibility if he was enrolled full time at UWM in either 2006-07 or '09-10.

Hopefan,

If I understand it correctly (a big if), if he was enrolled full time at Louisville for one year, he'd still have a year of eligibility left. But if he was enrolled for two years (it actually goes by semesters, I think), he'd have 2 years at Louisville and 3 at Principia and would be done.

[hopefan]

Thanks Dan...  that will be the question to ask if I run into the right people this weekend....

[Denny McKinney]

The clock starts the first semester the athlete competes in. JV and Non - Traditional seasons included. You can attend school for three years and never participate and go out for basketball and would have 10 semesters running from that point. It comes down to the first participation date.

[hopefan]

uhoh... a difference of opinion.....  well, though I'm still not sure, Prin doesn't quite seem like a rule breaker type of school, so I'd imagine Mr. Zimmerman is clearly eligible no matter what the rule is....   just worried that it will hurt my chances over in the winless pool

[dansand]

uhoh... a difference of opinion.....  well, though I'm still not sure, Prin doesn't quite seem like a rule breaker type of school, so I'd imagine Mr. Zimmerman is clearly eligible no matter what the rule is....   just worried that it will hurt my chances over in the winless pool

Just to clarify, when I say there's no clock, I mean that it's not based on time. While your eligibilty is limited in the amount of semesters you can compete, unlike D1, it doesn't have to occur within five years. That's how Joe Allen can still be eligible six years after his first competition.

...I'll defer to Denny, though, on whether two years of non-competiton at Louisville would count against Zimmerman's eligibility.

[Gregory Sager]

The clock starts the first semester the athlete competes in. JV and Non - Traditional seasons included. You can attend school for three years and never participate and go out for basketball and would have 10 semesters running from that point. It comes down to the first participation date.

That is not an accurate reading of the rule, Denny. First of all, please don't use the "clock" language used by the NCAA's scholarship levels when referring to D3, as it is confusing; since D3 does not require either consecutive enrollment or consecutive participation in terms of semesters/quarters, as Dan pointed out, there's really no "clock" at work.

Second, Dan had it right: The 10-semester/15-quarter rule is measured by enrollment, not by participation. Here is the rule, as spelled out in the 2010-11 NCAA Division III Manual (thanks to Bob for providing the link and saving me the trouble of having to wade thru the NCAA website for it):

14.2.2 10-semester/15-Quarter rule. A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation during the first 10 semesters or 15 quarters in which the student is enrolled in a collegiate institution in at least a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the regulations of that institution. For an institution that conducts registration other than on a traditional semester or quarter basis, the Management Council shall determine an equivalent enrollment period.  (Revised: 1/12/04 effective 8/1/04 for any athletics participation occurring on or after 8/1/04)
   14.2.2.1 Use of Semester or Quarter. A student-athlete is considered to have used a semester or quarter under this rule when the student attends any class while officially registered in a collegiate institution (domestic or foreign) in a regular term of an academic year for a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the institution, even if the student-athlete drops to part-time status at any time during the term, including his or her first day of attendance (see Bylaw 14.2.3). (Revised: 1/9/06)

As for Principia's Zimmerman, if he still has a season of eligibility left he can use it by pursuing a second baccalaureate degree (i.e., taking more undergraduate courses even after receiving his B.A. or B.S.), according to rule 14.1.9 of the Manual, so it's possible for a graduated player to continue playing for a school such as Principia that does not have graduate-level classes.

[y_jack_lok]

As for Principia's Zimmerman, if he still has a season of eligibility left he can use it by pursuing a second baccalaureate degree (i.e., taking more undergraduate courses even after receiving his B.A. or B.S.), according to rule 14.1.9 of the Manual, so it's possible for a graduated player to continue playing for a school such as Principia that does not have graduate-level classes.

If the above is the case then it is probably accurate for Principia to list Zimmerman as grad student even if he is not pursuing an advanced degree.

[Denny McKinney]

14.2.2 10-semester/15-Quarter rule. A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation during the first 10 semesters or 15 quarters in which the student is enrolled in a collegiate institution in at least a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the regulations of that institution. For an institution that conducts registration other than on a traditional semester or quarter basis, the Management Council shall determine an equivalent enrollment period.  (Revised: 1/12/04 effective 8/1/04 for any athletics participation occurring on or after 8/1/04)
  14.2.2.1 Use of Semester or Quarter. A student-athlete is considered to have used a semester or quarter under this rule when the student attends any class while officially registered in a collegiate institution (domestic or foreign) in a regular term of an academic year for a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the institution, even if the student-athlete drops to part-time status at any time during the term, including his or her first day of attendance (see Bylaw 14.2.3). (Revised: 1/9/06)

Correct. To be a student athlete you have to participate in some sport. You can be a student for any length, it's when you first paticipate that you become a student athlete and the semesters start counting to the 10 rule.

[Titan Q]

Wash U 79
MacMurray 57


Wash U lost 4 starters to graduation, and was without 2 definite starters (Knepper and Richter).

No boxscore to be found yet.

[hopefan]

I wrote from the Wash U perspective over in the UAA room... for Mac...  Starters were McClellan, Lee, Burton, Robertson, and Pettyjohn... first play of the game was a lob dunk to new frosh Dylan Burton, and for a brief instant, it was visions of Mac ruling the court... Forget it... Wash U shot lights out the first 10 minutes, building a 12 point lead... but then Mac, behind the tough nosed play of Jerrel Robertson, ran up a streak of their own and cut the lead to 3 at 26-23... the half ended at 35-27 and Mac was in it...  BUt Wash U just dominated the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half... the ball went into Gay or Toth every time down the court, and they'd either score or get fouled... only a hot hand by McClelland in the last 5 minutes cut the lead to 20...

Frosh Dylan Burton is the real deal..  nice looking shooter, can run and jump.. a little like Webster's Nick Jones.... he'll be a good one... Mac REALLY misses Brady Slagle... they were hurt badly by Wash U point Ben Hoener, and had little direction from Lee or McClellan.... as feared, Mac is really hurting for size.. Pettyjohn worked hard but was far outclassed by Gay and toth as they maneuvered for easy hoops inside.  Cole Busch tried to help off the bench, but he too has much to learn.   This group is hurting without Slagles ball possession... if McClellan handles, he can't be a scorer....Lee has to be much better if this is going to be a top 4 SLIAC team....   Webster is ahead of them right now... by alot...

[hopefan]

A couple other thoughts on Mac... Mcclellan finishes with 15 points and 8 assists, but doesn't really have a 'good' game....  surprising lack of shooting opportunities until the end of the game... Does Coach want Lee shooting 3 pointers, or the offense to reset to get the ball to Burton/Robertson/McClellan....   That's why I would describe last night's offense as out of sync...  could also be that all those 6 foot guys from Wash U played pretty good defense....
for about 8 minutes in the first half, Robertson was a man among boys... just overpowering bigger Wash U around the hoop....  but he has to do away with the trash off balance shots and stay strong to the basket the whole night..
I also noticed a kid off the bench.. Brian Suckow.. beautiful looking perimeter shot...  could be a real threat if McClellan forced to play point..... but the kid is very slender and will need to get stronger in order to do the other necessaries - defense, rebounding.

Mac fashion statement in the crowd.. pants below the butt, held up by tape around the thigh...  not real attractive to anyone...  hope it was worn for laughs... maybe left over from Halloween... Some of the Mac students do their best to take attention away from the game and put it on themselves.. hey guys, support your team, especially if you are athletes too....

[GCBball13]

Hey guys,
Sorry I've been AWOL for the past 7 months!  I try to read every now and then to stay up-to-date...
As far as the season goes, I don't know too much about any school other than Greenville, so I'll see what I can contribute...
GC lost seniors LaPhonso Ellis, Stephen Groves, and John Fischer.  Ellis will be the biggest hole to replace, but the other 2 will be missed as well.  GC returns 3 starters: Obi Agomo, KJ Hilliard, and Rashod Seaton (although Hilliard is coming off of surgery for his knee right now).  Key returners include: Andy Traeger, Jonas McBride, Rutger Neece, with 5 others who played limited minutes last year.  GC brought in a number of freshman and transfers who expect to make an impact right away.  A few that word has got out about that will get some PT are: Travis Garrison, Markeith Brown, and Dondrale Campbell.  GC has a decent amount of size this year, with a lot of players around 6'3" with the exception of a couple guards.  I think they will surprise a few people this year, as last year they were in almost every game (except @WC and @EC).
GC also added a freshman team this year, so the total number of guys in the program was about 45 at the start of the year... they dropped to the 30's but I thought is was kind of strange that they added the team since the rest of the conference has not decided to follow suit...
We open with STL College of Pharmacy tonight    but we host a tournament this weekend with Rhodes, Hendrix, and Westminster coming to town.  Should be a solid group of competition and I will keep y'all updated as I make  an appearance at some or all of the games!

[Gregory Sager]

14.2.2 10-semester/15-Quarter rule. A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation during the first 10 semesters or 15 quarters in which the student is enrolled in a collegiate institution in at least a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the regulations of that institution. For an institution that conducts registration other than on a traditional semester or quarter basis, the Management Council shall determine an equivalent enrollment period.  (Revised: 1/12/04 effective 8/1/04 for any athletics participation occurring on or after 8/1/04)
  14.2.2.1 Use of Semester or Quarter. A student-athlete is considered to have used a semester or quarter under this rule when the student attends any class while officially registered in a collegiate institution (domestic or foreign) in a regular term of an academic year for a minimum full-time program of studies, as determined by the institution, even if the student-athlete drops to part-time status at any time during the term, including his or her first day of attendance (see Bylaw 14.2.3). (Revised: 1/9/06)

Correct. To be a student athlete you have to participate in some sport. You can be a student for any length, it's when you first paticipate that you become a student athlete and the semesters start counting to the 10 rule.

"Student-athlete" only refers to the individual in terms of his or her current status, Denny. It does not refer to his or her matriculation in its entirety (i.e., his or her entire tenure as a full-time student, regardless of participation). That's why the word "student" appears all by its lonesome, without the "-athlete" appellation, in the first sentence of both 14.2.2. and 14.2.2.1. In other words, it's about enrollment, not participation.