MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hopefan]

I'll do a reverse question Denny... is the reason Fontbonne is losing this year because they are currently playing 10-11 players?   Would they be doing better playing 7?  If so, why aren't they doing that...  

And here's another thought... Fontbonne had a super team with Fogerty Storandt etc..2 years ago...  heck, i was a big fan thru all of our disagreements... BUT... would the program be in better shape today if 9 or 10 kids had played and more time was found for underclassmen to develope when Fogerty etc were seniors, rather than going with the 6 or 7 they usually played... rather than going through the disaster of the last two years....  would kids with JV as Frosh, 10 minutes a game as sophs be a bigger help than guys tranferring in or wonderkid frosh, none of whom have been able to show the improvement necessary to put fontbonne back on track?

Mac, Greenville and Spalding are all using 10 guys a game this season, and Webster could be using 10 (with Meeh, Whittingham, Bradfisch, Kuehl and Edwards playing)..
Westmin uses 5 subs in most games....Mallette, Henderson, Hoehnstein, Prophet and Vallandra....  

Now I know  this isn't your request for tourney teams, but it does show that the thought seems to be keeping kids active to give them experience and perpetuate the program... Fontbonne chose not to do that, and is paying for it now....

I don't think ridicule is merited for suggesting that playing 9 or 10 or 11 guys can be positive.....

[Denny McKinney]

Well I guess that's ones choice and goes for every D3 school.

I don't know how all schools. But, Fu has a no cut policy in all sports. If you tell an admission rep you played HS ball, you are told you can be a part of the team. You end with every year a group of athletes that were never recruited by their coach. It is this policy from the beginning of sports, to bring in numbers.

When I was JV coach there we had quite a few who played JV for 4 years. Dressed in some varsity competition. And played on senior nite.

They could say they were part of a college team. I'm not saying it works for all. Has worked for an awfully lot. Same way a Westminster. Alot of parents paying to have their kid sit the bench for Matt Mitchell.

[Denny McKinney]

Hopefan - would that team of won 3 straight playing 10-12. Answer is no. This year 10 have played because there is not a go to 5-7. All 10 are about on the same level. And yes. Every year every coach goes out to get the best they can. Then put the team on the floor that gives you the best chance to win. It's part of the job. Last year had experienced players and still did not measure up.

[hopefan]

 I did talk to an old colleague and apparently, there are going to be widespread cuts around the district and he is surprised they are keep athletics at all.

WUH's comment is regarding the St Louis Community Colleges....   and it's just a tragic shame that things are coming to that....

[Denny McKinney]

Hopefan - ask any coach in this conference if they would take 3 straight trips for a couple down. Unanimous. Sorry but the three examples you gave haven't won it yet. Spalding hasn't had the chance and they play 4 guys huge minutes. Just look at Fu and SC boxscore.

[Denny McKinney]

I'm having a herd time following your line of thought. Are you saying just being competitive year after year and not winning it all is better then finding that special group and giving them their chance to cut down some nets. Same as the mid 90's dominate teams. Then there is the group in the early 2000's that had good run during a period when there was no tourney. All of those were 7 man rotations.

We're back to disagreeing over philosophies.

[GC Panther 01]

Can someone explain the A+ program to me?

[hopefan]

This is a friendly discussion Denny... but I'm just not so sure what the coaches would say... there is something to be said for the philosophy of keeping the program flowing, not having to be dependant on transfers etc.....

incidentally... looked up my favorite D1 team (Pitt) and see they are playing 9 or 10 guys per game, 9 guys averaging double digit minutes

Mizzou is clearly playing 10 per game, all 10 double digit minutes

St Louis U is playing 10 guys per game

I will say, dear old Hope is playing only 7 guys every game

But big rival Calvin is playing 10 per game.....

Titan Q's IWU team is difficult to tell due to injuries, but it seems to indicate 9-10 players...

SIUC seems to use 8 -9

[hopefan]

GC Panther... sorry, not sure about the A+ program... but I'd venture a guess that it has to do with a pretty inexpensive JC education if you meet certain High School requirements... many qualified students choose not to go to community college, but as Denny said, in hard times, if more take advantage, that's less revenue into the school.........but as I said, I'm not certain....

[allamericanredhead]

As I stated way back, there has never been any ryhme or reason to the playing patterns at FC. A must win game two weeks ago and arguable FC best two players to that point, JT and Big Ray, play four minutes each!!! The next game they are both back up in the 20s.

Talk to players who have played there, it is very frustrating. You never know whag is going to happen next. FC has had very few four year players, and i mean very few. (they had the three three years ago, McCoy, Fogerty and Storandt - name one since or one before those three)  it is always the "quick fix." It was about 8 or 9 years ago that the team was something like 9-3 at the christmas break and three transfers (right off the street from the hood) show up for second semester, practice one time and all three start the first game of the second semester!!! Of course none of the three were back the next year. How many players has FC gone through this year?

No loyalty, no discipline and no consistency is why FC underachieves each year. This bunch 5-17? playing in the worst conference in the country? And they are still "searching" for the right mix with a week left in the season. Crazy.

[Denny McKinney]

Nailed it Hopefan. Not sure of GPA qualifications. East Central is loaded with rural kids getting there two years prior to attending a four for financial reasons. Example Yjak will remember. FU lady soccer player Ava Johnson, FU's best player from Perryville, and a gutsy ball player. She attended CC this year to be able to return and afford FU degree in Speech Path. FU draws students nationally for this program.

Then you have the Blackburns and School of the Ozarks that are first generation philosophy. Choose BC and what you don't receive in scholarship, state and federal, you work on campus to pay balance.

Hopefan your splitting hairs on this minutes deal. Insaid in an earlier post that a good player can give you 32 min a game. Leaving 2 minutes difference in double digit minutes available. But when FU needed to rest Storandt, why not move Fournie down and bring in a shooter like sheetz for short blows. Every position does not require a sub.

Again I ask. Would FU had won three playing 10-12 with the personell?

[WUPHF]

... but I'd venture a guess that it has to do with a pretty inexpensive JC education if you meet certain high school requirements... many qualified students choose not to go to community college, but as Denny said, in hard times, if more take advantage, that's less revenue into the school...

The A+ program is a scholarship for students to attend any Missouri community college tuition-free for two years.  It does have school requirements (GPA, community service) but not all Missouri high schools are eligible.  It goes county by county.  There is no revenue loss, though, as the state reimburses the institution.

Incidentally, East Central did away with sports altogether and they a new President starting bringing them back.  It maybe cyclical with St. Louis Community College as well.

[metaljacket]

not to boil the water anymore than it is already but I really believe that how many guys you play depends on what type of offense and defense you run.

a team like Syracuse plays in a zone which is easier on the lungs then man to man so they only play 8 guys, with 4 getting over 28 minutes. They do not need to sub as much because their players do not get tired as quickly. UK only has 6 guys averaging double digit minutes, only 6. Because they do not have Wall and Cousins this year, they have to slow their offense because if they didnt, they would have to use their bench more which they are obviously reluctant to do. VMI and Washington are the top two scoring teams in basketball, they both run transition offenses. They both have 10 players in double digit minutes. I think it just as to do with the system.

As far as fontbonne, webster, spalding, or anyone else, I think it goes program to program and year to year. Sometimes the teams are stacked with post players so the game is slower and less guys need to play. When you have fast guards, a transition game will be the obvious game plan which means they will have to sub more.

I just dont think there is ever a soldified number that should play, it goes school to school, year to year.

[Denny McKinney]

On Valentines Day with love in the air. Discussing with Hopefan the difference in  philosophies regarding numbers. We get visit from AARH, to spew a little more hatred out of his system. Throwing things against the wall to see what will stick. Again, I will attempt to correct your mistakes. Need to get new sources.

1. As previously posted Woods has developted a cyst on his knee that has caused swelling. That day was bad. Treatment is helping, but he is playing with a very bloated knee. Thomas, like I told Hopefan, is having a senior swoon and if you look at the boxscores preceeding it would show.

2. In the Fogerty group you should add John Dressler who played and received a dual Engineering degree from FU/Wash U. Sheetz and Buford are part of that group. The other starting guard played all but the last 8 games of four years. From the same freshmen class you had Scott Porter (Coach Porters son) and Mitch Lundy, who chose different avenues but graduated. We can't count Fournie 3 yrs or Forrest 2 because they are dreaded transfers.


Continue next post.

[Denny McKinney]

Four year players before. Off the top of my head and the era I'm closest with. Let's see,
Borgia group Fischer, King, Cundiff and Holdmier.
Brian Grassle
Ryan Oliver
John Thomas
Jeremy Nagel
Reggie Tillett
Drew Scheossell
Brian Schmuke
Matt Bright
Johnny "Ball game" Harris
Mike "Money" Lewis
Ryan O'Keefe
Mark Wolford........... These were the group from early 2000's and I know I'm missing some.

See how embarassing that is. Sorry AARH. No hard feelings taken. Try a new source.