MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[GC Panther 01]

Hope, Denny, and WUH Appreciate the info on the A+ program.  Does sound like that will be a tough loss as a feeder for the SLIAC schools.  Not alot of people can afford $30+k for an education that also affords them the ability to play sports. Believe me I'm still making payments on mine!

  On the playing time agruments, I'll have to agree that each team and style has to be taken into effect.  What personell you have and what you are trying to accomplish completely dictate who plays and how much, each team will change strategy from one year to another.

  On 4 year seniors playing, from my observation and obviously that is primarilly through my affiliation with Greenville, not many stay and/or play for 4 years.  It is not easy to be a student and an athlete and I will say my grades would have been better off if I had not been a member of the basketball team as well as the track team.  If I can remember correctly when I entered as a freshman we had a group of 9 guys who came to GC to play basketball.  Only 2 of us completed our careers, myself a 4 year player and Mark Giertz who played 3 years (lost a year of eligibility when he attended Blackburn).  Each year a similar group entered and I can't recall ever finishing with more a few 4 year players at the very best.

[BunchTime]

Staying with the topic of attrition... I don't believe Fontbonne is unique in the amount of 4 year players.  In my days at Webster (2001-2005), about 2 or 3 out of 10 or 12 that entered with me ended up playing four years.  Generally, you'll find that players that recieved playing time at an early stage in their careers ended up playing all 4 years.  However, playing time as a frosh was no guarantee someone ended up staying all 4 years.  I think Coach Bunch (of course, I am biased) does as well as anyone in the conference as keeping and developing players during their careers.  However, even his teams are not immune to attrition.  I know Webster's freshman class will typically have about 8-15 players and I would guess about 3-5 end up playing all four years.  The DIII siutation is unique in that no athletic scholarships are given.... there is no carrot to dangle in front of players reminding them if they quit or transfer, that their scholie will be yanked.  Many players just decide it's no longer worth their time, can no longer afford the tuition, decide to transfer to another school, etc.  Attrition is just part of the DIII experience and Fontbonne is not very different than any others... As for as Fontbonne's transfer rate that Red speaks of, it goes back to coaching philosophy.  If a talented players shows up at your door step, most SLIAC coaches are not going to turn that player down.  Coach McKinney has had many transfers, and many of those transfers have made significant contributions to that team.  It's hard to argue with their success -- FU would have to considered one of the top schools as for as men's basketball. 

[GC Panther 01]

Ok for arguments sake.  What makes the CCIW so much stronger than a conference like the SLIAC.  Throwing out the WI schools where D3 schools are state schools and tutuion reflects as much.  Where do the IL schools keep digging up thier talent?  Wheaton I can gather from their city draw, but places like IL Wesylean located in Bloomington should not have a significant advantage over a STL school should they?

[WUPHF]

Ok for arguments sake.  What makes the CCIW so much stronger than a conference like the SLIAC.  Throwing out the WI schools where D3 schools are state schools and tuition reflects as much.  Where do the IL schools keep digging up thier talent?  Wheaton I can gather from their city draw, but places like IL Wesylean located in Bloomington should not have a significant advantage over a STL school should they?

That is a very good question and hopefully a lot of CCIW fans will join in on the answer.  There are general answers, for sure, such as proximity and ability to draw from the talent-rich Chicago area, and institution specific answers.  Wheaton, for example, has the academic reputation and mission to draw nationally in a way that the SLIAC schools cannot.  Augustana is three hours away from Chicago, and yet they have more Chicagoland players on the roster than Wheaton, which is only 30 minutes away from downtown.

I will be interested to hear what others have to say.

[Denny McKinney]

To Bunchtime and GC panther 01, thank you for your comments. They mean alot more coming from two former competitors on the hardwood. GC01, you're that the legendary High and Triple jumper are you.

Yes 03-04 was Brian Grasle's final year and DeSmet product Kevin Roberts transfered home to finish his career with his sister at FU. Don't recall anyothers. Kevin hit a 30 footer to send the GC game to it's 3rd OT. The nite they ran out of video tape in the 2nd OT.

What fans don't see is what happens to the attricition. Take the Favorite topic class. It was Fogerty, Storandt, McCoy, Kirkpatrick, Porter, Lundy and I believe Almany. All graduated except Kirkpatrick who decided school wasn't for him. Almany didn't play four years of bball but had a stellar Baseball career. Plus, Dad hired Mr. Allmany as the Head track and cross country coach. He did great things with the program.

As for as what freshmen recruits are told. I have a pretty good idea. Dad has had only one player that he personally didn't recruit. Josh Branch. Josh played on 3 NCAA tourney teams and graduates this year. What I don't know is what admissions tells the players they bring in. This years sophmore class of Hamilton, Reese, Lisch and Curtis has one. Brighton Curtis is FU's premeir tennis player and wanted to try his hand at basketball.

This years freshmen class of 10 is the largest ever. 15 a year come on. Dad's philosophy like it or not has been to have a large freshmen class every four years. Then fill the pieces with good transfers. It's not that different at other SLIAC schools. This years WU has two leading the charge in Moore and Trimble. Westminister regularly gets transfers from Central Mo and Central Methodist. ie Jake Visalay.

This years senior class consists of Scheetz, Buford and Japaneese phenom known simply as Yo. Along with graduating Mike Riva and Ben Rapp. both who got to make trips to the tourney. Rapp would of been a huge a help at the point, but school load did not allow him to play. Zeollner could of helped this year but his parents decided it best for him to work on academics and not BBall and golf.

Different philosophies for different coaches. Simple

[Denny McKinney]

WUH good post. I can only speak of FU. Two items come to mind. One, the program is still an infant. And more importantly, having gone co-ed, FU is limited in male athletes choice of degree's. If your not there for Deaf Ed or Speec Path, your choices are basically Education and Bussiness Mgmt. Not alot of choices. FU is in the early stages of developing a sports management program, but not yet.

CCIW has the history and reputation that far exceeds the realm of SLIAC comprehension. It's like comparing the Colonial League to the Big 12. No disrespect Colonial league. When an E. Tenn State goes to the tourney it's much the same. Are they proud of their Rep? Hell yea. Do they expect them to win it all? Obvious.

Can it change? Time will tell. Recruiting hasn't been the easiest for St. Louis Univ in the immediate area.

[GC Panther 01]

Denny negative, I can barely jump over the Greenville phone book.  I threw the hammer in track.

[WUPHF]

I am planning a trip to Jefferson City and Fulton for our students and I discovered an interesting fact: the SLIAC is the only conference with two institutions, both Westminster and Eureka, that have part of the Berlin Wall on display.  There are two other Division III universities (Chapman and Johns Hopkins) that have Berlin Wall monuments.

OK, probably only interesting to me.

[allamericanredhead]

I am planning a trip to Jefferson City and Fulton for our students and I discovered an interesting fact: the SLIAC is the only conference with two institutions, both Westminster and Eureka, that have part of the Berlin Wall on display.  There are two other Division III universities (Chapman and Johns Hopkins) that have Berlin Wall monuments.

OK, probably only interesting to me.

that is cool!!

[allamericanredhead]

okay Dennis, i am going to back off. i failed to get under your skin on that one. if i had karma points, I would give you one

Really arguing on this board is what makes it fun. in olden (and I mean old) days, before AC, the whole street would sit outside in the summer to cool off and listen to Harry and Buddy (before Jack) call the Cardinal games. the fun was listening to the arguments. picked up javier in 59, how dumb! and brolio for brock, boy the cards got took on that one. biggest swindle since buying alaska. nothing there but snow. and on and on.

remember diz and pee wee and the Falstaff Game of the Week. Heck, how many remember Falstaff? with family involved, it is too personal for dennis. it would be interesting to hear his views if he had no horse in the race. until then, he might save himself a lot of torment by not reading what is on here.    Now, if this don't get me at least five negative karma points, I will be pi$$ed. 

To Bunchtime and GC panther 01, thank you for your comments. They mean alot more coming from two former competitors on the hardwood. GC01, you're that the legendary High and Triple jumper are you.

Yes 03-04 was Brian Grasle's final year and DeSmet product Kevin Roberts transfered home to finish his career with his sister at FU. Don't recall anyothers. Kevin hit a 30 footer to send the GC game to it's 3rd OT. The nite they ran out of video tape in the 2nd OT.

What fans don't see is what happens to the attricition. Take the Favorite topic class. It was Fogerty, Storandt, McCoy, Kirkpatrick, Porter, Lundy and I believe Almany. All graduated except Kirkpatrick who decided school wasn't for him. Almany didn't play four years of bball but had a stellar Baseball career. Plus, Dad hired Mr. Allmany as the Head track and cross country coach. He did great things with the program.

As for as what freshmen recruits are told. I have a pretty good idea. Dad has had only one player that he personally didn't recruit. Josh Branch. Josh played on 3 NCAA tourney teams and graduates this year. What I don't know is what admissions tells the players they bring in. This years sophmore class of Hamilton, Reese, Lisch and Curtis has one. Brighton Curtis is FU's premeir tennis player and wanted to try his hand at basketball.

This years freshmen class of 10 is the largest ever. 15 a year come on. Dad's philosophy like it or not has been to have a large freshmen class every four years. Then fill the pieces with good transfers. It's not that different at other SLIAC schools. This years WU has two leading the charge in Moore and Trimble. Westminister regularly gets transfers from Central Mo and Central Methodist. ie Jake Visalay.

This years senior class consists of Scheetz, Buford and Japaneese phenom known simply as Yo. Along with graduating Mike Riva and Ben Rapp. both who got to make trips to the tourney. Rapp would of been a huge a help at the point, but school load did not allow him to play. Zeollner could of helped this year but his parents decided it best for him to work on academics and not BBall and golf.

Different philosophies for different coaches. Simple

[allamericanredhead]

is it fair for a SLIAC school to get a automatic bid over a Wash U or a IW? Remember, Prin and Font could still end up with the SLIAC bid, and they are both ranked in the bottom 3% of all DIII schools.

Persoanlly, I think it is. Keeps the interest going in the weaker conferences. But I hope to start an arguement here.

[Mr. Ypsi]

is it fair for a SLIAC school to get a automatic bid over a Wash U or a IW? Remember, Prin and Font could still end up with the SLIAC bid, and they are both ranked in the bottom 3% of all DIII schools.

Persoanlly, I think it is. Keeps the interest going in the weaker conferences. But I hope to start an arguement here.

There are few (if any) more rabid supporters of IWU than I, but I agree (though it is not mainly about keeping interest going in the weaker conferences).  It is about access.  EVERYONE in d3 has access to the national tourney, if they just do what is within their opportunity to do.  Win your AQ (or if an independent or in a non-AQ conference, win enough to take a bid from the Pool B 'conference').

Pool C bids are kind of a luxury - a second chance for those who stand a decent chance of going far in the national tourney, but who were stuck with an even better team in their conference, or who stumbled in their conference tourney.  IWU, despite being ranked nationally as high as #2 in week 1, does not deserve either chance - they win the conference tourney or they (deservedly) go home.

[allamericanredhead]

even if prin or fc are the aq from the SLIAC?

should there be a stipulation that you must be in at least the top half of the rankings to qualify for the tourny?

I am a romantic and always searching for the next Rocky, but how do we justify the above situation?

[Pat Coleman]

How does a 16-14 team make it in Division I? It happens and I think that's part of the charm of an NCAA Tournament.

[allamericanredhead]

Does a 16-14 team in D1 have a better chance at winning than a 16-14 in DIII. Obviously, the conference would make a difference. 16-14 in the ACC is a lot different than 16-14 in the Big West. Also does the fact that in D1 they are all on scholarship make the desparity less than in D3?

I do think letting someone like a FC or a Principia in the backdoor of the tourney by getting hot on the right two nights, keeps it as the "people's" tourney.