MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hopefan]

I am so sorry for yet another off-topic post, but would anyone be interested in driving up for the Illinois College-Grinnell College game in January?  I have long wanted to watch the system in action and Illinois College is only about two hours away.

You didn't see them versus Fontbonne 3 years ago!!??....  it was CLASSIC Grinnell.....  they tore up Fogerty, McKoy, Branch etal going for 160+  and that night, they shot lights out against a very good Fontbonne team.  Contrary to muuch of what has been written lately, THAT NIGHT I came away dumdfounded impressed, because the system beat a better team that simply could not keep up....

Illinois college is in Jacksonville, same town as MacMurray... watch out for Illinois troopers on rural 67 or 267 whatever it is, and watch out for deer!!!!  I've had problems with both on that road....

That game is Jan 15, opposite the Webster at Westmin game which I would probably be going to...  HOWEVER, it is tempting...   keep it in mind as the date gets closer...last year IC split with Grinnel, losing 115-113, and winning 144-135...

[Gregory Sager]

Contrary to muuch of what has been written lately, THAT NIGHT I came away dumdfounded impressed, because the system beat a better team that simply could not keep up....

It's not a question of being impressed or unimpressed by the system. The ire that's being directed at Grinnell right now has to do with the lack of sportsmanship demonstrated by Grinnell's head coach, not with his system itself. In fact, as Titan Q has pointed out, Coach Arseneault modified the usual defensive and substitution patterns of the system in order to break that record.

[y_jack_lok]

You didn't see them versus Fontbonne 3 years ago!!??....  it was CLASSIC Grinnell.....  they tore up Fogerty, McKoy, Branch etal going for 160+  and that night, they shot lights out against a very good Fontbonne team.  Contrary to muuch of what has been written lately, THAT NIGHT I came away dumdfounded impressed, because the system beat a better team that simply could not keep up....

I do not believe that Fontbonne was a better team.  Grinnell loses plenty of games playing the system, and most of the teams they lose to would beat that Fontbonne team.

[WUPHF]

You didn't see them versus Fontbonne 3 years ago!!?? [...] Contrary to much of what has been written lately, THAT NIGHT I came away dumdfounded impressed, because the system beat a better team that simply could not keep up....

I have not had the time this season to follow the UAA, let alone the rest of Division III, so I have not followed the controversy, but I have wanted to see Grinnell every since Grinnell played Drake a decade ago.  I had planned to watch them against Lake Forest years ago when I lived in Chicago but never made it. 

I have no idea why I missed the Fontbonne game.  Or the Principia game for that matter.

[hopefan]

You didn't see them versus Fontbonne 3 years ago!!??....  it was CLASSIC Grinnell.....  they tore up Fogerty, McKoy, Branch etal going for 160+  and that night, they shot lights out against a very good Fontbonne team.  Contrary to muuch of what has been written lately, THAT NIGHT I came away dumdfounded impressed, because the system beat a better team that simply could not keep up....

I do not believe that Fontbonne was a better team.  Grinnell loses plenty of games playing the system, and most of the teams they lose to would beat that Fontbonne team.

That kind of surprises me.. my opinion is that if that Grinnell team had come out and played a normal scheme, Fontbonne would have beat them with a tough inside game the same way they beat other teams.. Grinnell had little size and no bulk... there was no way they could play that offensive game though, plus Fontbonne was only 6-7 deep, and ill prepared to deal with the system...

[hopefan]

Contrary to muuch of what has been written lately, THAT NIGHT I came away dumdfounded impressed, because the system beat a better team that simply could not keep up....

It's not a question of being impressed or unimpressed by the system. The ire that's being directed at Grinnell right now has to do with the lack of sportsmanship demonstrated by Grinnell's head coach, not with his system itself. In fact, as Titan Q has pointed out, Coach Arseneault modified the usual defensive and substitution patterns of the system in order to break that record.

As I said.. THAT NIGHT (vs Fontbonne)...  this baloney against Faith Baptist was NOT impressive.

[Gregory Sager]

Ah, I see that I was the victim of English's lack of a general past imperfective. You intended simple past tense, I read it as imperfect aspect. We wouldn't have this problem if we were posting in Latin.

[GC Panther 01]

GC went to STL Pharmacy last night and won 119-80.  Now 4-0 vs less than stellar competition but have scored over 100 now in 3 straight games.  First conference game tomorrow at Prin.

[ecreddevils]

The Grinnell system is absolutely genius at the D-III level.  I've followed them for at least 10 years and have seen several games in person.  You can recruit 20-30 kids are aren't necessarily overly athletic, but can shoot and want to shoot.  You can guarantee them playing time right off the bat.  Who wouldn't want to play in an up-tempo system where you get to fire the ball up at a constant rate?  Not to mention, the system actually WORKS; this is no circus, they win games. 

As far as the Faith Baptist game, it's been well-covered in the MC thread, but I'll just say that FB had to know what they were in for when they scheduled the game.  No problem with it at all. 

EC/Mac tonight--tough conference matchup right off the bat.  Will tell us a good bit about the pecking order in the SLIAC this year.

[ecreddevils]

GC went to STL Pharmacy last night and won 119-80.  Now 4-0 vs less than stellar competition but have scored over 100 now in 3 straight games.  First conference game tomorrow at Prin.

Greenville is a sleeping giant this year.  What's the book on Daniel Anderson?  He's putting up big numbers so far.

[John Gleich]

The Grinnell system is absolutely genius at the D-III level.  I've followed them for at least 10 years and have seen several games in person.  You can recruit 20-30 kids are aren't necessarily overly athletic, but can shoot and want to shoot.  You can guarantee them playing time right off the bat.  Who wouldn't want to play in an up-tempo system where you get to fire the ball up at a constant rate?  Not to mention, the system actually WORKS; this is no circus, they win games. 

As far as the Faith Baptist game, it's been well-covered in the MC thread, but I'll just say that FB had to know what they were in for when they scheduled the game.  No problem with it at all. 

EC/Mac tonight--tough conference matchup right off the bat.  Will tell us a good bit about the pecking order in the SLIAC this year.

I don't think there is a general problem with the system that Grinnell plays... it's just the way that they do it.

... Like in the Faith Baptist game, where they continued to press the whole game and a starter was in the game in the final minute.

If you go back a few pages, I posted the box scores of several other games where there were blow outs (UW Platteville had 2, Hope had one, and North Central had one). In three of those 4 games, the opponent didn't score more than 20.

And you know what? None of the teams that did the blowing out played their starters in the second half. The final margins were with players at the end of the bench playing significant minutes.

Here's that post:

Great post Larry.  whey your team is up by 40 at the half, its time to put the breaks on.  Instead they went out to embarrass an overmatched opponent in hopes of gaining national attention.

Looked to me like they're just having fun playing basketball.  The point of the game is to put the ball in the hoop--period.  Faith Baptist certainly knew about the system when they scheduled this game.  It's not like Grinnell rolled out a new secret weapon; this is what they DO and have done for years.  It really doesn't make a lot of sense to me why anyone would complain about  or criticize this.

Is embarrassing an opponent while playing a starter throughout the whole game fun? Check out the box scores of these other games...

North Central 73 IIT 20  Box

Hope 118 College of Faith 20  Box

UW Platteville 105 IIT 20  [http://athletics.uwplatt.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/Stats/uwpmbk03.htm]Box[/url]

UW Platteville 88 Emmaus Bible 35  Box


These are all massive blowouts, played by a greatly superior team and a severely under matched team. You'll notice that in only one (UWP vs. Emmaus Bible) did a starter play more than 20 minutes.

Grinnell's system, as TitanQ has mentioned, regularly rotates all 5 players in and out of the game, and rarely does a player play more than 20 minutes.

Grinnell has modified the system for certain of these "Record" games.

[Titan Q]

The Grinnell system is absolutely genius at the D-III level.  I've followed them for at least 10 years and have seen several games in person.  You can recruit 20-30 kids are aren't necessarily overly athletic, but can shoot and want to shoot.  You can guarantee them playing time right off the bat.  Who wouldn't want to play in an up-tempo system where you get to fire the ball up at a constant rate?  Not to mention, the system actually WORKS; this is no circus, they win games.

It also has to be noted, though, that Grinnell hasn't played in an NCAA tournament game for 11 years now.

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2001/030101m.htm

[ecreddevils]

The Grinnell system is absolutely genius at the D-III level.  I've followed them for at least 10 years and have seen several games in person.  You can recruit 20-30 kids are aren't necessarily overly athletic, but can shoot and want to shoot.  You can guarantee them playing time right off the bat.  Who wouldn't want to play in an up-tempo system where you get to fire the ball up at a constant rate?  Not to mention, the system actually WORKS; this is no circus, they win games.

It also has to be noted, though, that Grinnell hasn't played in an NCAA tournament game for 11 years now.

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2001/030101m.htm

I suppose you could define success that way...

If you're going to look at records, 95-50 since 06-07.  They routinely get 15-20 players into the game and have fun playing. Might be another way to measure success.

[John Gleich]

The Grinnell system is absolutely genius at the D-III level.  I've followed them for at least 10 years and have seen several games in person.  You can recruit 20-30 kids are aren't necessarily overly athletic, but can shoot and want to shoot.  You can guarantee them playing time right off the bat.  Who wouldn't want to play in an up-tempo system where you get to fire the ball up at a constant rate?  Not to mention, the system actually WORKS; this is no circus, they win games.

It also has to be noted, though, that Grinnell hasn't played in an NCAA tournament game for 11 years now.

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2001/030101m.htm

I suppose you could define success that way...

If you're going to look at records, 95-50 since 06-07.  They routinely get 15-20 players into the game and have fun playing. Might be another way to measure success.

I'm not buying that EC.  Look at the box score again...

How do you think Leo Abbe-Schneider, Brent Lemoine, and Anthony Lamacchia felt? Sure, they took their warm-ups off... but they all played 2 minutes.

They played 2 minutes in a game that the team won by 75 and had a 39 point lead at halftime!

If you look at the box scores for the other games, nobody played less than 6 minutes. In the Hope game, everybody played 12 minutes or more.

[ecreddevils]

The Grinnell system is absolutely genius at the D-III level.  I've followed them for at least 10 years and have seen several games in person.  You can recruit 20-30 kids are aren't necessarily overly athletic, but can shoot and want to shoot.  You can guarantee them playing time right off the bat.  Who wouldn't want to play in an up-tempo system where you get to fire the ball up at a constant rate?  Not to mention, the system actually WORKS; this is no circus, they win games.

It also has to be noted, though, that Grinnell hasn't played in an NCAA tournament game for 11 years now.

http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2001/030101m.htm

I suppose you could define success that way...

If you're going to look at records, 95-50 since 06-07.  They routinely get 15-20 players into the game and have fun playing. Might be another way to measure success.

I'm not buying that EC.  Look at the box score again...

How do you think Leo Abbe-Schneider, Brent Lemoine, and Anthony Lamacchia felt? Sure, they took their warm-ups off... but they all played 2 minutes.

They played 2 minutes in a game that the team won by 75 and had a 39 point lead at halftime!

If you look at the box scores for the other games, nobody played less than 6 minutes. In the Hope game, everybody played 12 minutes or more.

Sample size, John. 

How deep is the Hope rotation in your average non-blowout?  I'm guessing some of those guys who played won't see the floor again, or if they do, it's only for a minute here or there in garbage time.  In your average Grinnell game, 10-15 players see 10 minutes or more--and those aren't in situations where their team is destined to win, but rather in regular close game situations that could affect the outcome.  Leo, Brent, and Anthony are all freshman who absolutely know they'll get regular minutes down the road in the system, not just in the handful of games a year when their team is up big.