MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

IWU head coach Ron Rose has definitely made recruiting the STL area a priority.  In addition to the recruit from De Smet, on the current roster he has...

Nick Anderson, Jr (Edwardsville H.S.)
Mike Mayberger, Jr (St. Louis U High)
Pat Sodemann, So (Parkway West H.S.)
Bryce Dolan, Fr (Borgia H.S.)
Joel Pennington, Fr (Lafayette H.S.)

There are a lot of good players in the STL area.  I don't think Rose's predecessors (Dennie Bridges, Scott Trost) hit STL very hard at all.

I think the Shirk Center is a huge selling point.  On the other hand, the $38k tuition price tag, maybe not so much.  SLIAC schools need to find a way to get these players.

You're ignoring the difference between list price and real price.  While I've never heard ANY whispers of 'athlete preference', we alums (and other friends) have made it possible for IWU to be VERY generous with those who have earned it academically or whose family finances require it.  I'm sure some give up after hitting 'sticker shock', but IWU is actually very affordable.

(North Park has moved a different direction: lowering the sticker price drastically (which, of course, also meant a drastic cut in financial aid, since even those who could afford the full earlier price no longer had to).  It seems to be working very well for them in terms of enrollment.  Many families, especially those with a first-time-in-any-college applicant, cannot get past the initial sticker price.)

[Denny McKinney]

This is kind of a silly conversation. But,Ok. Hopefan- You answered your own question. Make it real simple. All things being equal financially and I think they are. It's like asking a HS player do you want to go to Duke and the Cameron Crazies or SEMO. FU is now $31,500 a year, with one of the smallest endowments in the conference. So packaging is not that different. You said Coach Mitchell recruited the DeSmet kid hard. That's all you can do. He got his share. Off the top of my head I can think of Buxton, Kurz and Warnecke all from Lafayette.

Your continued Knock on the small town kids I find offensive. You can't measure a players heart or desire, by the size of a school he attended. With these players having the availability of AAU they are getting plenty of competition.

[Denny McKinney]

Really Folks. You attack my Karma for being realistic?

[ecreddevils]

IWU head coach Ron Rose has definitely made recruiting the STL area a priority.  In addition to the recruit from De Smet, on the current roster he has...

Nick Anderson, Jr (Edwardsville H.S.)
Mike Mayberger, Jr (St. Louis U High)
Pat Sodemann, So (Parkway West H.S.)
Bryce Dolan, Fr (Borgia H.S.)
Joel Pennington, Fr (Lafayette H.S.)

There are a lot of good players in the STL area.  I don't think Rose's predecessors (Dennie Bridges, Scott Trost) hit STL very hard at all.

I think the Shirk Center is a huge selling point.  On the other hand, the $38k tuition price tag, maybe not so much.  SLIAC schools need to find a way to get these players.

You're ignoring the difference between list price and real price.  While I've never heard ANY whispers of 'athlete preference', we alums (and other friends) have made it possible for IWU to be VERY generous with those who have earned it academically or whose family finances require it.  I'm sure some give up after hitting 'sticker shock', but IWU is actually very affordable.

(North Park has moved a different direction: lowering the sticker price drastically (which, of course, also meant a drastic cut in financial aid, since even those who could afford the full earlier price no longer had to).  It seems to be working very well for them in terms of enrollment.  Many families, especially those with a first-time-in-any-college applicant, cannot get past the initial sticker price.)

This is certainly true, but that fact also holds true for schools with lower stated tuition, making them even that much more affordable.  Granted, IWU is a very good academic school with a gorgeous campus and top facilities. 

Still, I would think the St. Louis SLIACS, in particular, would be able to get more slightly higher caliber players from the St. L. burbs.  There is a huge pool of very good players from "big school" programs who played solid competition, and as was stated earlier, you don't need the number 1 guy from those programs, 2-4 can help at the SLIAC level.  The same holds true in regard for a school like EC and the Peoria/BN area, which has some really good basketball being played at the 3A and 4A level.  That's not to say that the 1A and 2A players aren't as competent, they often are, but the pool of better athletes who are more well prepared does realistically lie with the larger classes.

[hopefan]

This is kind of a silly conversation.  It's like asking a HS player do you want to go to Duke and the Cameron Crazies or SEMO.

I'd like to meet the kid whose decision came down to Duke and SEMO...

[hopefan]

All other advantages and disadvantages aside, the student athlete and his family have to take the rose colored glasses off and evaluate this... if PLAYING HOOPS is important in the decision making process, where do I fit in.  If he goes to an IWU level school, he faces that much more competition for playing time than if he goes to a SLIAC school...  is it a better experience to go to IWU and get 15 minutes per game and average 5 points on a NATIONALLY RANKED TEAM that plays in front of 2000-3000 fans most nghts will likely have success in the NCAA TOURNAMENT...  or is it a better experience to come to a SLIAC school and get 30 minutes per night and average 15 points per game in front of mostly family and a handful of students, a good crowd tops off at 300, and the game of the year is the conference championship....  ALL UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL...   it's the same decision a better player faces if deciding on lowest level D1 or high level D3...  The SLIAC has lost 3 players to transfer to D2 or D1 in the last couple years... Each SLIAC MVP calibre talent.. two hardly saw the court at all this season, and very well never will, the third played, but with poor results... would be interesting to see if they had any regrets.

[ecreddevils]

"it's the same decision a better player faces if deciding on lowest level D1 or high level D3...  The SLIAC has lost 3 players to transfer to D2 or D1 in the last couple years... Each SLIAC MVP calibre talent.. two hardly saw the court at all this season, and very well never will, the third played, but with poor results... would be interesting to see if they had any regrets."

Or between going to a high D-1 program and maybe never seeing the floor or going to a mid-major and potentially being a star.  These decisions exist at all levels.  Examples abound.  A good local one is Matt Roth.  Highly recruited out of Washington High School, great shooter, but undersized, has Kelvin Sampson sell him on IU, high D-1.  Sampson leaves, Roth stays, rarely finds the floor in his career.  If he stays home at a mid-major program like Bradley or ISU he is likely a four-year starter who could have potentially been a top player in the MVC.

Your IWU/SLIAC analogy holds along the same lines.  The deep bench players at IWU or Auggie would start on SLIAC teams, but they want the "experience" of being on the roster at a slightly higher profile D3 school rather than the experience of actually playing on the court.  This is where you you make your pitch as a SLIAC school. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes those players change their minds after a year or two or riding the pine and go SLIAC.

[Denny McKinney]

"You're ignoring the difference between list price and real price.  While I've never heard ANY whispers of 'athlete preference', we alums (and other friends) have made it possible for IWU to be VERY generous with those who have earned it academically or whose family finances require it."

Mr. Ypsi you nailed it. Take Principia out, there is No Way a FU or any other SLIAC school can compete with any CCIW schools on packaging. Not for a student athlete or any other student. I've known for along time that the FU students and student athletes pay more to attend school then probably any other DIII in a two state area (Blackburn doesn't count). Webster always has offered better packages then FU. When recruiting head to head with Webster for a player, Dad always had to sell the family and the player on something other then the money.

That is because of the history of FU. The property FU sits on was part of the 1904 Worlds Fair grounds. It was also outside of the city then. The property was donated to 16 Sisters of Joe, who were here from Carondelet, France. To build a women's Catholic College. It did not go co-ed till mid 70's and at that time it was Deaf Education, Speech Path., Special Ed. and Education only. The enrollment in '88 when Dad was hired was 303. This is not the type of school that could build the endowment because the Graduates were not getting wealthy.  Plus, FU has only had organized sports teams (other then club) for 26 years.

Basically my view of Division III members are either State Schools or High Profile Private schools. I truly do not believe that the SLIAC schools are part of the Div. III profile. That's my general opinion. I told Dad all a long it would of made a great NAIA II conference. But, it was his and Dr. Dunham's vision to be part of the NCAA. Ms. Dr. D's father was the stat man for Bobby Knight for 20 years at Indiana. It was her that told Dad as soon as he had 4 NCAA teams, she would build what he wanted for an on - campus facility. Four years later the Dunham Center was built. The ironic part is, An ex Catholic nun went to Oral Roberts University and left with a 250,000 donation from the Mabee Foundation. At the time the Mabee name was on only two gyms, ORU and FC. She raised the funds to pay for the DSAC before the first tip off. And I may be partial, but it is one of the nicer facilities.

I think it is a mistake to think that the SLIAC schools don't recruit the metro St. Louis area hard. They do! The problems are: 1.) You eliminate a good portion of those kids because of shear cost. You can't drive a BMW on a Chevy salary. 2.) This is big. Kids do not want to go to a commuter school. A lot want to go away to college. 3.) What the school offers academically. If an athlete wants anything other than and Education or Business Degree FU doesn't offer it. And 4.) A lot of metro kids do not qualify. Because of this cities poor quality schools.

I hope that sheds some light on the struggles "I believe" exist in this recruiting discussion.

[Gregory Sager]

"it's the same decision a better player faces if deciding on lowest level D1 or high level D3...  The SLIAC has lost 3 players to transfer to D2 or D1 in the last couple years... Each SLIAC MVP calibre talent.. two hardly saw the court at all this season, and very well never will, the third played, but with poor results... would be interesting to see if they had any regrets."

Or between going to a high D-1 program and maybe never seeing the floor or going to a mid-major and potentially being a star.  These decisions exist at all levels.  Examples abound.  A good local one is Matt Roth.  Highly recruited out of Washington High School, great shooter, but undersized, has Kelvin Sampson sell him on IU, high D-1.  Sampson leaves, Roth stays, rarely finds the floor in his career.  If he stays home at a mid-major program like Bradley or ISU he is likely a four-year starter who could have potentially been a top player in the MVC.

Your IWU/SLIAC analogy holds along the same lines.  The deep bench players at IWU or Auggie would start on SLIAC teams, but they want the "experience" of being on the roster at a slightly higher profile D3 school rather than the experience of actually playing on the court.  This is where you you make your pitch as a SLIAC school. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes those players change their minds after a year or two or riding the pine and go SLIAC.

I don't think that the analogy is all that accurate. D3 schools attract a different type of student-athlete than do D1 schools, and the needs, desires, and priorities are different at this level. A D3 student-athlete is often more concerned with the academic side of things than with anything else, and that will often in large part shape the decision. For example, a student-athlete who has a desire to major in an engineering-related field might choose a school like MSOE or Rose-Hulman over a CCIW school, even though the CCIW is regarded as a league that offers higher competition than does the NAthC (MSOE) or the HCAC (Rose-Hulman). A kid who gets recruited by a school that has a high-powered academic reputation in general (i.e., Grinnell, Macalester, Lawrence, MIT, or one of the UAA or NESCAC schools) might choose that school over other D3 schools that are recruiting him, even if those other D3 schools are better in his particular sport or play in a stronger league.

And as far as a school like Augie or IWU is concerned, academic reputation alone might play the crucial role in a student-athlete choosing that school over a SLIAC school (not to put down the SLIAC schools academically, mind you). In fact, a kid might prefer to go to a school where he'd get more playing time -- even good players at Augie tend to have their minutes held down by Coach Grey Giovanine's proclivity to rotate ten to twelve players per game -- such as a SLIAC school, but the academic factor, not the stronger-program-and-better-competition factor, might lead him to go to a CCIW school where he'd see less playing time.

[Titan Q]

Mr. Ypsi you nailed it. Take Principia out, there is No Way a FU or any other SLIAC school can compete with any CCIW schools on packaging. Not for a student athlete or any other student. I've known for along time that the FU students and student athletes pay more to attend school then probably any other DIII in a two state area (Blackburn doesn't count). Webster always has offered better packages then FU. When recruiting head to head with Webster for a player, Dad always had to sell the family and the player on something other then the money.

I have no way to prove it, but I'd be absolutely shocked if you are right about this as it applies to IWU (the CCIW school I am obviously the most familiar with).  "Packaging" or not, Illinois Wesleyan is just really, really expensive.  IWU loses athletic recruits all of the time to other D3 schools (including CCIW schools) over the price tag.

I have a hard time believing that IWU is any cheaper on average than a SLIAC school.  IWU went head-to-head with Westminster for Charlie Henderson a few years back and couldn't get in the ballpark of WC's final price.

[Titan Q]

Basically my view of Division III members are either State Schools or High Profile Private schools. I truly do not believe that the SLIAC schools are part of the Div. III profile. That's my general opinion.

Denny, your two tiers are just too broad.  I'll give you the state schools tier, but within the private school tier there are several subsets you are not accounting for. 

As I see it, there is the elite national liberal arts schools (like those in the NESCAC)...and then the large national research institutions (like the UAA schools)...and then the regional-type private schools (like IWU and DePauw and Lawrence)...and then some of the more "local" schools (like Fontbonne, or Knox, or Benedictine).

I may not be naming these perfectly, and I could be missing tiers, but those two high-level tiers you identified are just way too broad.  The SLIAC schools seem to be perfect D3 fits to me...there are a whole bunch of D3 schools out there that look quite a bit like Fontbonne, Webster, Westminster, etc.

[Gregory Sager]

Basically my view of Division III members are either State Schools or High Profile Private schools. I truly do not believe that the SLIAC schools are part of the Div. III profile.

Wow. You could not be more wrong, Denny. In fact, this comment leads me to question just how well you know D3 in general.

The vast majority of D3 institutions are private schools, and the vast majority of those private schools are not high-profile in any sense of the term. That's a big reason why people are constantly thanking Pat Coleman for starting this family of websites in the first place; name recognition and media attention for most D3 schools is so bad that there was a long-standing thirst for better coverage of D3 schools sportswise that Pat has managed to help slake. That lack of name recognition and media attention is not just a sports thing, either. Most D3 schools are either not well-known outside of, say, a hundred-mile radius of campus, or else they're not well-known even in their own locale (depending upon the size of the town).

The SLIAC schools are close to the typical profile of a D3 institution -- closer, I'd argue, than are the CCIW schools. That's true in terms of finances, facilities, media attention, and name recognition.

Schools such as Grinnell, MIT, Caltech, and Wash U are outliers. The rank-and-file of D3 consists of schools such as Lakeland, Salve Regina, Baptist Bible, Averett, Martin Luther, Mount St. Joseph ... and Fontbonne, Eureka, and Greenville.

[hopefan]

While I skoffed at the thought long ago, my experience with the SLIAC brings me closer and closer to thinking a "D4" might not be a bad idea....   These guys deserve a real shot at winning some post season games.....

[louhoopsfan]

SLIAC still gets there share of players from large schools in the STL area. Off the top of my head I can name (returners)...

Webster - Smith (Clayton), Zehner (Oakville), Drady (Vianney)
Fontbonne - Dorhauer (Vianney), Carel (Pkwy Central), Welch (Lindbergh), Ahearn (Clayton)
Westmin - James (Vianney), Jones (Marquette), Stonecipher (Lafayette), Ebert (Lindbergh)

Even Greenville has a freshman from Webster Groves.

I understand these guys weren't "stars" by any means in HS, but I will go out and say all were pretty good HS players, deserving to play D3 basketball in the SLIAC. Agree that we need to get more of these guys

[Denny McKinney]

Q - My brush stroke may have been a bit wide. I thought I had read that IWU was at 36K and I know Wash U very expensive. I will give you those. But, I do know that FU is 31K. And, I do know that FU's endowment is almost miniscule when you compare it to the schools we are discussing. I'm saying that an academic based scholarship at a school with 2 million in endowment is a lot smaller then with a school with 25 million. Wash U's is in the stratosphere and rightly so. So I will make exceptions if IWU is that expensive. But, 31k isn't cheap.

In relative terms, Fontbonne is also very very expensive.