MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[ecreddevils]

I don't think that the analogy is all that accurate. D3 schools attract a different type of student-athlete than do D1 schools, and the needs, desires, and priorities are different at this level. A D3 student-athlete is often more concerned with the academic side of things than with anything else, and that will often in large part shape the decision. For example, a student-athlete who has a desire to major in an engineering-related field might choose a school like MSOE or Rose-Hulman over a CCIW school, even though the CCIW is regarded as a league that offers higher competition than does the NAthC (MSOE) or the HCAC (Rose-Hulman). A kid who gets recruited by a school that has a high-powered academic reputation in general (i.e., Grinnell, Macalester, Lawrence, MIT, or one of the UAA or NESCAC schools) might choose that school over other D3 schools that are recruiting him, even if those other D3 schools are better in his particular sport or play in a stronger league.

And as far as a school like Augie or IWU is concerned, academic reputation alone might play the crucial role in a student-athlete choosing that school over a SLIAC school (not to put down the SLIAC schools academically, mind you). In fact, a kid might prefer to go to a school where he'd get more playing time -- even good players at Augie tend to have their minutes held down by Coach Grey Giovanine's proclivity to rotate ten to twelve players per game -- such as a SLIAC school, but the academic factor, not the stronger-program-and-better-competition factor, might lead him to go to a CCIW school where he'd see less playing time.

Of course, you're correct, academics (and lots of other things:  cost, geography, facilities, institutional culture etc.) do oftentimes play a role, but frankly many basketball players are making their decision, even at the D3 level, based largely on their athletic life.  This is antithetical to the "spirit" of D3, but I do think it largely holds true.

There are huge pools of players who want to continue to play basketball in whatever way possible and for whom the academic reputation of the institution isn't all that super important.  MIT, Rose-Hulman, MSOE, Caltech, etc. are institutions where you have absolute top-level academic achievers who happen to play basketball.  But, those schools are the exceptions, not the rule, as many students want to get on the court first and academics are a secondary bonus.  My comments were based strictly on that framework.   

[Titan Q]

Q - My brush stroke may have been a bit wide. I thought I had read that IWU was at 36K and I know Wash U very expensive. I will give you those. But, I do know that FU is 31K. And, I do know that FU's endowment is almost miniscule when you compare it to the schools we are discussing. I'm saying that an academic based scholarship at a school with 2 million in endowment is a lot smaller then with a school with 25 million. Wash U's is in the stratosphere and rightly so. So I will make exceptions if IWU is that expensive. But, 31k isn't cheap.

In relative terms, Fontbonne is also very very expensive.

Oh, I know Fontbonne is very expensive...almost all private schools are.  But that original statement you made is inaccurate as far as I know...

Mr. Ypsi you nailed it. Take Principia out, there is No Way a FU or any other SLIAC school can compete with any CCIW schools on packaging. Not for a student athlete or any other student. I've known for along time that the FU students and student athletes pay more to attend school then probably any other DIII in a two state area (Blackburn doesn't count). Webster always has offered better packages then FU. When recruiting head to head with Webster for a player, Dad always had to sell the family and the player on something other then the money.

[Denny McKinney]

Q- Because we can not openly discuss any individual financial aid packages. Mainly because I haven't seen one. We will agree to disagree. I think we can agree the size of scholarships are based on the size of Univ's endowment. When we are comparing the same students information. SHOOT! What I'm trying to say is what I said before, School X with endowment of 1 mil will have smaller academic scholarships, then School Y which has 10 mil.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think that the analogy is all that accurate. D3 schools attract a different type of student-athlete than do D1 schools, and the needs, desires, and priorities are different at this level. A D3 student-athlete is often more concerned with the academic side of things than with anything else, and that will often in large part shape the decision. For example, a student-athlete who has a desire to major in an engineering-related field might choose a school like MSOE or Rose-Hulman over a CCIW school, even though the CCIW is regarded as a league that offers higher competition than does the NAthC (MSOE) or the HCAC (Rose-Hulman). A kid who gets recruited by a school that has a high-powered academic reputation in general (i.e., Grinnell, Macalester, Lawrence, MIT, or one of the UAA or NESCAC schools) might choose that school over other D3 schools that are recruiting him, even if those other D3 schools are better in his particular sport or play in a stronger league.

And as far as a school like Augie or IWU is concerned, academic reputation alone might play the crucial role in a student-athlete choosing that school over a SLIAC school (not to put down the SLIAC schools academically, mind you). In fact, a kid might prefer to go to a school where he'd get more playing time -- even good players at Augie tend to have their minutes held down by Coach Grey Giovanine's proclivity to rotate ten to twelve players per game -- such as a SLIAC school, but the academic factor, not the stronger-program-and-better-competition factor, might lead him to go to a CCIW school where he'd see less playing time.

Of course, you're correct, academics (and lots of other things:  cost, geography, facilities, institutional culture etc.) do oftentimes play a role, but frankly many basketball players are making their decision, even at the D3 level, based largely on their athletic life.  This is antithetical to the "spirit" of D3, but I do think it largely holds true.

There are huge pools of players who want to continue to play basketball in whatever way possible and for whom the academic reputation of the institution isn't all that super important.  MIT, Rose-Hulman, MSOE, Caltech, etc. are institutions where you have absolute top-level academic achievers who happen to play basketball.  But, those schools are the exceptions, not the rule, as many students want to get on the court first and academics are a secondary bonus.  My comments were based strictly on that framework.

While I agree with everything you say, my point is that academics rarely seem to enter into the equation for D1 players at all, whereas academics do figure in for quite a few D3 players, even if they're still a minority of the overall pool of D3 players. That, and the issue of cost, are two things that make comparisons between D1 and D3 difficult to square.

I also want to add that I really, really disagree with this statement:

Kids do not want to go to a commuter school.

Not true. Denny, we're coming out of a recent recession, and money is still tight for an awful lot of Americans. And for the past day we've been talking in this room about just how expensive college (especially private-school educations) can be. If you can take room and board out of the equation by going to a school that's close to home and that allows you to commute, you can save a lot of money. Commuter undergraduate enrollments are booming when compared to resident undergraduate enrollments.

A lot want to go away to college.

Most don't. A significant majority of American undergraduates attend a college that's within 100 miles of home. The median distance from home to school for an American college undergraduate is less than 70 miles. And only about one in five college undergraduates attends a school out of state.

While I skoffed at the thought long ago, my experience with the SLIAC brings me closer and closer to thinking a "D4" might not be a bad idea....   These guys deserve a real shot at winning some post season games.....

Spalding battled a very good Wash U team deep into the second half this year and only lost by nine. Fontbonne came pretty close a few years ago. And the SLIAC reps have been doing a much better job of representing themselves in recent years. You don't see them get blown out by 30, 40 points anymore, which used to be the norm.

I think a postseason win by a SLIAC team is doable. It'll take the right SLIAC team and the right bracket configuration, but I do think it's possible.

[Mr. Ypsi]

While I skoffed at the thought long ago, my experience with the SLIAC brings me closer and closer to thinking a "D4" might not be a bad idea....   These guys deserve a real shot at winning some post season games.....

Spalding battled a very good Wash U team deep into the second half this year and only lost by nine. Fontbonne came pretty close a few years ago. And the SLIAC reps have been doing a much better job of representing themselves in recent years. You don't see them get blown out by 30, 40 points anymore, which used to be the norm.

I think a postseason win by a SLIAC team is doable. It'll take the right SLIAC team and the right bracket configuration, but I do think it's possible.

And Westminster in 2012 gave quite a battle AT #1 Hope (which, on paper, is NOT the right bracket configuration).  They were never closer than down 6 in the second half, but Hope simply could not put them totally away.

Which leads to an obvious poll question (apologies to Greg in advance, but I couldn't resist ):

  Which will happen first:

     A tournament win for a SLIAC basketball team, OR
   
     A conference win for an NPU football team?

(I'll vote for NPU, since their next season is sooner and I think this is FINALLY the year.)

[Gregory Sager]

While I skoffed at the thought long ago, my experience with the SLIAC brings me closer and closer to thinking a "D4" might not be a bad idea....   These guys deserve a real shot at winning some post season games.....

Spalding battled a very good Wash U team deep into the second half this year and only lost by nine. Fontbonne came pretty close a few years ago. And the SLIAC reps have been doing a much better job of representing themselves in recent years. You don't see them get blown out by 30, 40 points anymore, which used to be the norm.

I think a postseason win by a SLIAC team is doable. It'll take the right SLIAC team and the right bracket configuration, but I do think it's possible.

And Westminster in 2012 gave quite a battle AT #1 Hope (which, on paper, is NOT the right bracket configuration).  They were never closer than down 6 in the second half, but Hope simply could not put them totally away.

Which leads to an obvious poll question (apologies to Greg in advance, but I couldn't resist ):

  Which will happen first:

     A tournament win for a SLIAC basketball team, OR
   
     A conference win for an NPU football team?

(I'll vote for NPU, since their next season is sooner and I think this is FINALLY the year.)

Let's make it interesting. Which will happen first:

* A tournament win for a SLIAC basketball team;

* A conference win for an NPU football team; or

* Chuck and iwu70 going six months without either one mentioning the 1970 ISU vs. IWU "chicken" game

(I'm certainly not placing my bet on #3.)

[Denny McKinney]

"Not true. Denny, we're coming out of a recent recession, and money is still tight for an awful lot of Americans. And for the past day we've been talking in this room about just how expensive college (especially private-school educations) can be. If you can take room and board out of the equation by going to a school that's close to home and that allows you to commute, you can save a lot of money. Commuter undergraduate enrollments are booming when compared to resident undergraduate enrollments."

If they want to commute they can attend the local JC for free on the A+ Program.

"Most don't. A significant majority of American undergraduates attend a college that's within 100 miles of home. The median distance from home to school for an American college undergraduate is less than 70 miles. And only about one in five college undergraduates attends a school out of state."

SEMO was right at 100 miles and it sure felt like I went away. Heck, that's the distance to Columbia, MO.

And since I answered you I'll take back my previous Politically Correct view of DIII and tell you what I really think. NCAA DIII is a division that basically plays in the NE quarter of the US. North of the Mason Dixon Line and stops at the Mississippi River. What maybe 15% of overall membership is outside that area? 

I would bet a cup of coffee that the SLIAC would have a win in the NAIA II Tourney. Where the common folks get a little something for driving those small schools enrollment. The D III has to much of an Elite Attitude for me. Sorry I'm just small town kind of guy. And, Proud to say I was born in Washington, Mo. I was forced to go to a Hazelwood High School, instead of Worden, IL. HS were Dad had coached with enrollment of 96 in the whole school system. And, the basketball was played a whole lot better then my school with a graduating class of 1300. These are just my opinions. We are still allowed to have one aren't we?

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'm pretty sure that I'm already past the six months.  As for Mark, he's pretty proud of being one of the 'handlers' of the chicken, so I'm uncertain!

[y_jack_lok]

NCAA DIII is a division that basically plays in the NE quarter of the US. North of the Mason Dixon Line and stops at the Mississippi River. What maybe 15% of overall membership is outside that area? 

This is an interesting observation and seems fundamentally accurate. Maybe somewhat (but not a lot) more than 15% of D3 schools play outside this area, in part possibly because Virginia and Iowa (and maybe NC and MN) seem to have a fairly healthy number of schools in D3. I'd be curious to know the real numbers. There are over 400 D3 schools, right? Are more than 100 of them outside the area Denny mentions? If so, then we're at more like 25%, but I'll bet not much higher.

[Denny McKinney]

Yjak- +1 for catching my Geography error. I totally snoozed on WV and NC. And, I know Better then letting The Great Sager under my skin. I had MN, IA, West Coast and Mr. Turner's South teams in mind and I put that number at about 60. I should of contacted you, to talk me down before I jumped . It just really gets under my skin the way the SLIAC has always been treated. If they want the league in DIII, then quit bad mouthing it. I have never heard anyone bad mouth the small D1's that don't ever get a win in the tournament. In fact Sports Center rolls a ton of videos showing them celebrating a chance to go to the dance. And, they know their celebrating for the experience and not their chance to make a post season run.

I was one of those St. Louis HS kids. Hazelwood HS had two 6'10 players and a 6'6 start. All three went D1 and we were a below .500 team and deserved to be the way we were coached. St. Louis is not Chicago, in the since that you have a boatload of options. To stay home and play you have very few options. In distances mentioned you have WU, FU, MoBapt and McKendree. Not counting 2 Juco's. That's not a lot. Plus the city is the pits. I know kids "want" to get the heck out of Dodge. In my day it was SEMO and now days you Mo. State for those players who fore go college sports and a ton of Kids go to Mizzou for a social environment.

People can spout all the stats they want, I had a brother, sister n law and Christy graduate from FC. Christy got the largest academic scholarship offered, the "Martha Hatch - Doer Scholarship. It is 3500 a year and given to 35 students. And for some reason tuition just keeps going up. The kid has to be dirt poor with great academics, a 30+ ACT or money is NO Problem parents to have a chance. Unfortunately I've seen kids and their parents going into huge debt so they could play at FC. This weighs on a coach, I know.

I guess you just have to be really thick skinned or just don't come on this site. Or, the rest of the posters can accept the SLIAC for what it is.

[sac]

NCAA DIII is a division that basically plays in the NE quarter of the US. North of the Mason Dixon Line and stops at the Mississippi River. What maybe 15% of overall membership is outside that area? 

This is an interesting observation and seems fundamentally accurate. Maybe somewhat (but not a lot) more than 15% of D3 schools play outside this area, in part possibly because Virginia and Iowa (and maybe NC and MN) seem to have a fairly healthy number of schools in D3. I'd be curious to know the real numbers. There are over 400 D3 schools, right? Are more than 100 of them outside the area Denny mentions? If so, then we're at more like 25%, but I'll bet not much higher.

Rough estimate, probably missing some crossovers in the Mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes (like Transylvania)
South Region =  53 schools
West Region minus the WIAC, Finlandia and Northland = 50
counting 4 SLIAC schools, Grinnel and Cornell

107 schools slightly over 25%

[y_jack_lok]

sac, thanks or the research. +1.

[Titan Q]

It just really gets under my skin the way the SLIAC has always been treated. If they want the league in DIII, then quit bad mouthing it.

What type of mistreatment/bad mouthing of the SLIAC are you referring to?

[y_jack_lok]

It just really gets under my skin the way the SLIAC has always been treated. If they want the league in DIII, then quit bad mouthing it.

What type of mistreatment/bad mouthing of the SLIAC are you referring to?

I just want to say that I don't sense any mistreatment or bad mouthing of the conference on this board. I think we get a lot of good observations and input from people whose primary allegiance is to other schools and conferences. We have hopefan to thank for much of that, because he is such a great advocate for the SLIAC.

[Mr. Ypsi]

NCAA DIII is a division that basically plays in the NE quarter of the US. North of the Mason Dixon Line and stops at the Mississippi River. What maybe 15% of overall membership is outside that area? 

This is an interesting observation and seems fundamentally accurate. Maybe somewhat (but not a lot) more than 15% of D3 schools play outside this area, in part possibly because Virginia and Iowa (and maybe NC and MN) seem to have a fairly healthy number of schools in D3. I'd be curious to know the real numbers. There are over 400 D3 schools, right? Are more than 100 of them outside the area Denny mentions? If so, then we're at more like 25%, but I'll bet not much higher.

Rough estimate, probably missing some crossovers in the Mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes (like Transylvania)
South Region =  53 schools
West Region minus the WIAC, Finlandia and Northland = 50
counting 4 SLIAC schools, Grinnel and Cornell

107 schools slightly over 25%

You listed 109.

A number of the Minnesota schools are actually east of the Mississippi, but just continuing up the Wisconsin/Minnesota border makes things a lot easier.  And those may be counter-balanced by the GL and MA schools who are south of the line, anyway.

Somewhere between 105 and 110; or 25% give or take.