MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[sac]

A very simplistic answer is that many of the schools between the Mississippi River and the West Coast are heavily state supported schools.  With few exceptions, D3 is mostly Private institutions.

[Denny McKinney]

 Thanks for responding Sac. +1K for making it simple.

[Gregory Sager]

I think it is a mistake to think that the SLIAC schools don't recruit the metro St. Louis area hard. They do! The problems are: 1.) You eliminate a good portion of those kids because of shear cost. You can't drive a BMW on a Chevy salary. 2.) This is big. Kids do not want to go to a commuter school. A lot want to go away to college. 3.) What the school offers academically. If an athlete wants anything other than and Education or Business Degree FU doesn't offer it. And 4.) A lot of metro kids do not qualify. Because of this cities poor quality schools.

I hope that sheds some light on the struggles "I believe" exist in this recruiting discussion.

Yep. I thought I made it pretty clear.

You didn't. "Kids do not want to go to a commuter school" appears to be a generalization, from which you drew the more specific implication that the generalization affects basketball players from the St. Louis area. That is the plain reading of your bare-bones statement. If you had wanted to make the statement itself specific, you should've said, "St. Louis area basketball players do not want to go to a commuter school."

[Gregory Sager]

Yes TQ you are correct. As Yjak pointed out, I snoozed on WV and NC. My question is why NCAA III is so regionally heavy? Did the NCAA desire to keep it that way for travel purposes? I do not know my NCAA History back in it's inception days. Is there a reason why it is so NE loaded? Even the SE is relatively slim (SC, GA, FL, AL)?

I know population is one factor. But, It seems to me that DIII got to 420 members without much effort to recruit a more geographic balance. There are a lot of schools between StL and the West Coast. The whole west coast thing baffles me, considering their isolation from other members. Even TX. You would expect a Lone Star conference would be simple and provide the tournament committee some options. LA, MS, AR, OK and KS is another area you would expect to find members.

It just seems to me when you Crown a National Champion, it is more of a Regional Championship. I'm just asking if anyone knows the philosophy about how they went about accepting members.

Based upon the three sentences I underlined, you seem to be under the misapprehension that the NCAA has the policy of recruitment, or the power of selection, or both, when it comes to adding new member schools to D3. It doesn't. Schools "recruit" and select themselves to the NCAA, and to the divisions contained within it. There are guidelines that control membership within the NCAA -- D1 and D3 schools are required to field six teams per gender, D2 schools are required to field five teams per gender, for example, and D1 has rules governing average attendance and seating capacity minimums in certain sports. And the various NCAA divisions will only accept a certain number of new schools per division per year, although that's a recent development. But, by and large, the schools themselves determine which division they will enter. And the NCAA does not recruit new schools.

Therefore, the process by which D3 got so northeastern-heavy is akin to a potluck dinner. It's northeastern-heavy because the schools in the northeastern quadrant of the country are the ones that selected D3, not the other way around.

As you guessed, population is a factor here. The corner of the country east of the Allegheny River and north of the Potomac River is the most densely-populated section of the country, and the eleven states in that corner contain approximately half of the membership of D3 institutions. The midwest, which is less densely populated than the northeast, but still more densely populated than the south and west, has another 30-40% of the D3 membership. That leaves most of the country, geographically speaking, with little or no D3 footprint at all. As sac said, state schools make up a higher proportion of the schools of the south and the west, but even they're sparser on the ground than they are in the northeast and midwest.

Finally, to a certain degree, D3 membership -- or NAIA membership -- becomes progressively distorted by process of self-selection. That is to say, teams in the northeast or midwest are more likely to move from NAIA to D3 because there are other D3 schools nearby. However, teams in the south or west are less likely to move from NAIA to D3, or more likely to move from D3 to NAIA, because there aren't any other D3 schools nearby. We just saw that happen with Presentation, a D3 school in South Dakota that left D3 and the UMAC (a Minnesota-centered conference in which most of the membership is a very long ways away from Presentation) to re-join the NAIA, where it will help start up a league that consists of teams from North and South Dakota, two traditionally NAIA-centric states. Likewise, several schools from the GPAC -- an NAIA league whose membership is mostly Nebraska-based -- contemplated joining D3 over the past couple of years, only to back out of formally entering into the four-year process to do so, and I'll bet that the major reason why was because the distances to the nearest D3 schools are just too great. That's why Nebraska Wesleyan has had such a difficult time keeping its D3 membership active.

The more that teams clump together like that in their respective organizations and divisions, the less and less feasible it becomes for teams to switch over. And since entire leagues can't switch over anymore, as they used to do back in the day, it's even harder now to buck geography and join D3 if you're a southern or western school.

[Mr. Ypsi]

As is often the case, Greg beat me to the post.

In addition to Nebraska Wesleyan (which has to get an exemption every year to qualify for the tourney since they play in an otherwise NAIA league and do not get anywhere near enough d3 games) there is the situation of Colorado College.  They are members of the SCAC, a South Region d3 league, so d3 games are not really a problem, except the travel cost must be absolutely staggering.

As Greg explained, the 'regionalism' of d3 is unlikely to change much, because schools outside the current areas would simply have no one to play unless a whole cluster of schools migrated to d3 en masse (which is no longer allowed).  In fact, the 'regionalism' is likely to get even more pronounced, since the NAIA defections to d3 are basically all in areas where there are d3 teams to play!

[y_jack_lok]

Good stuff from Sager & Ypsi. Thanks.

[Gregory Sager]

As is often the case, Greg beat me to the post.

... which always surprises me, given how much longer it takes to type one of my posts than it takes to type one of yours.

[Denny McKinney]

I think it is a mistake to think that the SLIAC schools don't recruit the metro St. Louis area hard. They do! The problems are: 1.) You eliminate a good portion of those kids because of shear cost. You can't drive a BMW on a Chevy salary. 2.) This is big. Kids do not want to go to a commuter school. A lot want to go away to college. 3.) What the school offers academically. If an athlete wants anything other than and Education or Business Degree FU doesn't offer it. And 4.) A lot of metro kids do not qualify. Because of this cities poor quality schools.

I hope that sheds some light on the struggles "I believe" exist in this recruiting discussion.

Yep. I thought I made it pretty clear.

You didn't. "Kids do not want to go to a commuter school" appears to be a generalization, from which you drew the more specific implication that the generalization affects basketball players from the St. Louis area. That is the plain reading of your bare-bones statement. If you had wanted to make the statement itself specific, you should've said, "St. Louis area basketball players do not want to go to a commuter school."

Mr. Sager - Are you in politics? Your are the King of removing a tidbit from a whole line of discussion to make an irrelevant point. Everyone in the conversation knew what we were discussing. Last time I checked this was still D3Hoops. Not D3StudentBody. If I wanted to use, "St. Louis area basketball players do not want to go to a commuter school.", I would have. It was not needed with who I was discussing it with. I'll give you credit for your wealth of knowledge. But I think you need to check the air supply to your Egotistical Crystal Tower. It has to be running a little lean.

As I said, your StL. second tier basketball players have very limited choices to stay at home. Three NAIA and two DIII. Having lived in this city off and on for the better part of my life. It is sad to say it is not the place to be.

But, Thank you on your view of the geographic reasons for D3 members. +1K 

[Gregory Sager]

Mr. Sager - Are you in politics? Your are the King of removing a tidbit from a whole line of discussion to make an irrelevant point. Everyone in the conversation knew what we were discussing. Last time I checked this was still D3Hoops. Not D3StudentBody. If I wanted to use, "St. Louis area basketball players do not want to go to a commuter school.", I would have. It was not needed with who I was discussing it with. I'll give you credit for your wealth of knowledge. But I think you need to check the air supply to your Egotistical Crystal Tower. It has to be running a little lean.

Insulting me may make you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that you were not clear in your original post.

[Denny McKinney]

What would make me feel better is to not have to over think every comment to make sure I'm not nitpicked by you. Everyone I was in conversation with new exactly what I meant. TQ did not post that IWU had a got a commitment from just another 6'6 student from DeSmet. It was a pretty good DeSmet post player. Hence the name D3Hoops. Moving On.

[Gregory Sager]

It wasn't nitpicking. You made a pretty sweeping statement about commuters, a statement that I might add nobody here has indicated that they followed with regard to your train of thought (contrary to your declaration otherwise), and I challenged you on it.

Look, I get that you have a thin skin. Q was right when he said this:

What makes this forum great is the number of different opinions represented, like yours above.  But realize when you make debatable points (and many of your points in this conversation have been "debatable"), you're going to get a little healthy debate coming back.  You seem a little surprised/offended that you've gotten pushback -- remember, the stronger the opinions you make, the stronger the counter points will be from those who feel otherwise.  Neither party is in the wrong - it's all good.

Bottom line, I don't think you have been "attacked" at all in this conversation.  "Scrutinized"?  Sure.  But you certainly posted some things that welcomed healthy scrutiny.

You made some questionable statements and then lashed out defensively and emotionally when you got challenged on them. But the give-and-take of conversation, including challenging the statements of others when necessary and defending your own statements when necessary -- politely, and without insulting other people -- is part of what d3boards.com is all about. For instance, take the exchange that ecreddevils and I had the other day about D1 and D3. We had a difference of opinion, we went back and forth about it a couple of times, found some middle ground, and it came to a natural and harmless conclusion. Nobody got all hot under the collar. Nobody felt the need to insult the other person.

I just don't understand why you have to overreact so often to conversations that really don't merit such an emotional response. Your ire is usually directed at hopefan, as more than once you've blown your stack at him for no good reason and then quit the boards in a huff, only to return a month or two later as if nothing had happened. Right now I appear to be hopefan's proxy. And the personal insults directed at me ... are they really necessary? Do they really advance your cause in terms of having people respect you and take what you have to say seriously?

I'm not on here looking for arguments. (Although I admit that they seem to find me from time to time. ) But I'm not the type to let stuff like your inaccurate generalization of D3 schools as being either state schools or high-profile private schools simply pass by without comment. I'm a set-the-record-straight type, and I'm going to speak out whenever it's necessary to correct a misapprehension. It's nothing personal, just as I don't take it personally when someone corrects me. Facts and opinions are not measurements of a person's worthiness. I don't see why you have to get so worked up about stuff like this.

[Denny McKinney]

Ok Greg - When I listed what I thought were the problems with SLIAC recruiting in St. Louis, I thought it was clear we were talking basketball. If others thought we were talking admissions, then I took for granted the topic.

[hopefan]

I have been sidelined from my review of teams and what each has coming back,  due to a couple of major health issues in the family, but all is well now, so I'll get back on track....last request was for Greenville... so let's get started with them...

Greenville had finished well over .500 in 2012, but were labelled the mystery team coming into 2013... they had lost 7 regulars to graduation from the 2012 squad, but with 4 players who saw  time in Coach Barber's rotation, and 6 Junior College transfers as well as a number of solid frosh coming in, I thought Greenville could make an impact in the SLIAC conference race.... well, it didn't work out that way.... the team started out 6-1, with a good win vs Rhodes and convincing scores in other wins vs weak competition... but something went drastically wrong, and the Panthers went 3-15 the rest of the way, beating only Prin and Blackburn... 

When I saw them vs Prin early in the season, they looked good not great... I thought very good talent from the JC kids, good size and atleticism, but pretty disorganized.... it never got any better... Coach Barber eventually made the tough love decision to demote 4 of the JC transfers, all whom had been seeing regular playing time, to the JV squad and brought up 3 frosh and used several other players who had seen limited playing time... Greenville understandably languished, though it gave some additional guys experience, and hopefully lit a fire under the butts of the JC kids who were sent down.

Lost to graduation are Ben Giertz toughnosed 5'10" guard, great defender and leader, though not a threat on offense (5.8 ppg, 3.4 APG) ;    Simon Martin 6'5", who started in the middle towards the end of the season (4.3 ppg, 3.9 rpq)  ;Jordan Smith 6'1" wing, pretty good perimeter shooter (9.7 ppg); and role player Kyle Martin...

A real mishmash of talent returns.... it will be one of Coach Barbers's greatest coaching challenges to see if he can blend it back to a team that can be competitive for a SLIAC Tourney spot..


Leading returner is the diminutive Alex Mumphard at 5'6", 12.7 PPG 3.6 APG  38% from the 3 point line... quick, disruptive on defense, will have to be the leader of this group... All conference Honorable Mention.
Also
Dan Anderson 6'2" wing.. 10.9 ppg...  transfer who contributed the whole year...  smart player, nice looking shooter but disappointing 30% from 3 point range
Todd Albertson 6'3"  Came on strong in 2nd half of the season... averaged 7.4 ppg, led the team with 5.1 rpg

where to from there?...  Well, I was informed that 3 of the 4 JCrs who were sent to the JV are considering, and hopefully will be, returning...
Anthony Metzler, 6'4", tough around the basket, aggressive... 8 ppg, 3.6rpg
Tevin Rollins, 6'4", 3.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg.... played in the middle
Austin Potts, 6'1",  3.6 ppg  in the guard rotation
When I saw these kids play, I was impressed... athletic, seemed to blend in with what Coach Barber was doing etc...  but something obviously was not working out for them to be demoted.. it does say something that they agreed to this experience... hopefully they'll return to contribute to the 13-14 team... All three can help ... Unfortunately, Marquel Jones (13.4 ppg) apparently will not be returning to play in the 13-14 season.

Two Frosh came up and saw action in the 2nd half of the season... Tim Daniels 6'4" looked very solid.. averaged 8.2 ppg and shot well...also 3 rpg... Brian Ehresman 5'11" averaged 5.5 ppg and 2 apg... also will mention Tyler Mitchell, an upperclassman who saw time in all games.. tough nosed, plays with a little attitude, could be important to this group...

There are numbers and talent here, reasonable size if the JCrs return... but as I said, Dr George faces a stiff challenge....

[GC Panther 01]

Greg, why is it that an entire league can no longer make the switch from NAIA to D3?

[Pat Coleman]

Primarily because Division III has dozens more members than it used to and the incoming class is limited to a handful of schools in any given year. The entire GPAC, for example, would need to come in in two separate groups, if not three, barring a change in NCAA rules or policy.

Back when the entire Northwest Conference came over to D-III in 1998, D-III was a little smaller. Now we're coming up against NCAA Tournament caps in several sports, where we'll have more than the 416 members that the 6.5-to-1 playoff ratio suggests for a 64-team field. And we're already over that for the 32-team football field.