MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

My words this morning:

AND...I'd also mention, the SLIAC's last two entrants, Westmin two years ago and Spalding last year have given Top notch teams Wash U and Hope all they could handle in first round games....  I really think the SLIAC's top teams are catching up a little, and that first NCAA win is coming sooner than some would think...

And we come VERY MUCH CLOSER

Absolutely right, hope!

Ordinarily, my comeback for that would be that there's no carryover, that one year's narrow loss doesn't necessarily mean beans the next March -- especially if it's a different team involved. But, looking at the Webster roster, I can definitely see the Gorloks being the breakthrough team in the 2015 tournament if they can bring everybody back that is eligible to return (which is not necessarily a given for a lot of SLIAC programs). They looked like a Top 25 team tonight -- and tonight obviously proved that Webster's prowess has reached the point where it doesn't matter where they get sent or who they're matched up with.

If I was a coach of a traditional-power team, I would not want to be paired with Webster in next year's first round.

Greg enough all ready. Your patronizing, pot shot comment. Ain't flying.

It's not a "patronizing, potshot comment," Denny. It's the truth, and as the son of a former SLIAC head coach you know it just as well as anyone.

A lot of programs in this league have a tough time hanging onto players from one year to the next. I didn't say it to denigrate either Webster or the SLIAC. I said it because it's a fact, and because it needed to be said when assessing Webster's chances for next season.

Don't be so thin-skinned that you lapse into denial about this. Webster's a great story, and the Gorloks have a chance to do great things next year. But this league does have a history of players not returning who have eligibility left. There's no denying that. Heck, the Miller kid for Webster is himself an example of that. When discussing Webster's chances for next year, SLIAC attrition is very much a viable point to be made.

The people watching online. Just watched the CCiW Champs threw up their lunch all over the floor. And, gets bailed out.

There were bad calls both ways down the stretch, Denny. They evened out, IMHO.

Choose a different target for your late nite Blog. That response will stir up a hornets net.

I didn't say it to stir up anything. I said it because it's the truth. I was very, very impressed by Webster tonight, and I was not sparing at all in my compliments towards the Gorloks. I even said this:

If I was a coach of a traditional-power team, I would not want to be paired with Webster in next year's first round.

... for which I didn't get an ounce of credit from you -- not that I was expecting any.

We don't want your respect, didn't ask for it and not needed on our page tonite.

Sorry, Denny. I guess that I didn't get the memo from Pat Coleman that he had put you in charge of deciding who gets to post in this room and who doesn't.

Post it on the CCIW Page. Your boys let it get away.

Let's get something straight: They are not my boys. They're Titan Q's boys, and Mr. Ypsi's boys, and iwu70's boys, and titanfan's boys. They. Are. Not. My. Boys. I can't stress that enough.

That's two in a row for IWU. I am highly disappointed in the IWU performance. And, someone please mention that it took Nelson 35 mins. 14 fga to lead IWU with 16. Let's Get it together before you make it three in a row. At home. IMHO

Nelson is a terrific weapon off the bench for IWU, but he was part of the problem for Wesleyan tonight. The Titans took far too many treys, and a lot of his misses from downtown were not good shots. He was really into chucker mode. Victor Davis and Andrew Ziemnik were their best players tonight.

[WUPHF]

Greg: My guess is that you are usually one of the smartest guys in the room, at least when it comes to Division III basketball.  I love reading your posts.  While I do not disagree with what you said, I do think there are times, like last night, when you should just let others have their thread to process the tough loss and not worry so much about correcting the record.

[y_jack_lok]

I'm both happy and sad for the Gorloks. I didn't see the game, but they were providing a few score updates during breaks in the action of the Wash U - Wilmington game. I heard 68-68 with 48 seconds left, then nothing until the under 4 minute timeout when the final score was announced. My heart sank and I uttered an expletive that I think may have made the Calvin fans sitting in front of me a little uncomfortable. So I hereby formally apologize to those folks as I know that is not the kind of language they use.  And in case you aren't familiar with it, the emoticon to the left is the one titled "Embarrased".

[Titan Q]

LOL! What a joke of a game.  Glad I drove to Bloomington to watch the zebras to still the show!  Hahaha!!! Yay, Titans!

Shameful. I'd be embarrassed to be a Titan right now. Handed the game.

How does it feel SLIAC. Hurts like Hell don't it. They were not going to let that building set empty tomorrow for the Big Game. Anyone please watch the last 1:08, tell me I'm wrong on what I saw take place. I think I saw some calls " saying I ain't gonna be the guy that called THE GAME for rest of MY LIFE.

Greg enough all ready. Your patronizing, pot shot comment. Ain't flying. The people watching online. Just watched the CCiW Champs threw up their lunch all over the floor. And, gets bailed out.

After watching the video of the final minutes this morning, I think the comments made here about Webster getting cheated last night were pretty unfair.

The On Demand of the IWU/Webster game is here - http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/iwu.portal#.

In terms of calls in the last couple of minutes, I suppose these will all come down to what lens you're looking through, but here are my thoughts...

* (1:53:40) Titans up 67-64 with 2:12 to play, IWU's Brady Zimmer drives to the basket and called for a charge.  Webster defender was not set for long, and one that could have gone either way.  Webster gets the call and the ball back.

* (1:54:25) Titans up 67-64 with 1:48 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith misses a jumpshot and IWU PG Bryce Dolan is called for a foul on Hunter Ward.  I have watched this a few times and this call looked to be a big break for the Gorloks.  Hunter Ward makes 2 FTs.

* (1:57:20) Gorloks up 68-67 with 0:43 to play, IWU goes into Andrew Ziemnik in the low post and he draws contact from Jarrod Huskey, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Ziemnik makes 2 FTs.

* (1:59:45) Titans up 69-68 with 0:29 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith drives and draws contact from IWU's Victor Davis, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Smith makes 2 FTs.

* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs.

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this.

* Immediately after above, Ahmad Smith rushes the ball up the floor, defending by Brady Zimmer.  Jarrod Huskey sets a screen about 30 feet from the basket.  Zimmer flares out to avoid Huskey, but then there is contact and Zimmer goes down.  I have watched this about 10 times and it seems to be Huskey initiates the contact with Zimmer with his left shoulder.  I think this was the right call whether 3 seconds into the game, or with 3 seconds to play.  I'm interested to hear what others see on this play - particularly those with no dog in the fight so to speak.

I don't think Webster got cheated by the officials in the final minutes of this game.  Some very close calls ended up going both ways.

[hopefan]

TQ thanks for that link.. here's the funny thing.. my computer decided to buffer right as Jordan Overstree went to the foul line... by the time it was running again, the players were shaking hands.. I had no idea how things went down

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

[y_jack_lok]

TQ thanks for that link.. here's the funny thing.. my computer decided to buffer right as Jordan Overstree went to the foul line... by the time it was running again, the players were shaking hands.. I had no idea how things went down

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

Yes, I can confirm the bolded statement above.

[Titan Q]

TQ thanks for that link.. here's the funny thing.. my computer decided to buffer right as Jordan Overstree went to the foul line... by the time it was running again, the players were shaking hands.. I had no idea how things went down

So throw out everything until the final 8 seconds

I'll now label the official's call on the Jarrod Huskey screen as irresponsible... one of the worst I've ever seen in the final seconds of a game..  Huskey's feet were set, his hands were in and down in a protective position... he leaned slightly, but that didn't play a role, there was going to be enough contact to take Zimmer out of defensive position anyway....the call simply should not have been made... It robbed everyone, Webster and IWU fans alike, of seeing a game deciding shot, win or lose....as YJack will tell you, I don't yell at refs, I'm decidedly against that behavior.. but heck, that's one where the players should have decided the outcome... instead the man with the stripes did.. I'm afraid I would have been yelling til the lights went out at the Shirk on that one...

hopefan, I respect your opinion on the screen call.  I think Huskey's lean forward and left did have an impact on Zimmer's ability to defend that play.  But either way that call went someone was going to be very unhappy.

What is your take on the in-bounds play?  It seems to me Webster got away with a turnover.

[oldknight]

* (1:59:45) Titans up 69-68 with 0:29 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith drives and draws contact from IWU's Victor Davis, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Smith makes 2 FTs.

* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs.

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this.

* Immediately after above, Ahmad Smith rushes the ball up the floor, defending by Brady Zimmer.  Jarrod Huskey sets a screen about 30 feet from the basket.  Zimmer flares out to avoid Huskey, but then there is contact and Zimmer goes down.  I have watched this about 10 times and it seems to be Huskey initiates the contact with Zimmer with his left shoulder.  I think this was the right call whether 3 seconds into the game, or with 3 seconds to play. I'm interested to hear what others see on this play - particularly those with no dog in the fight so to speak.

I don't think Webster got cheated by the officials in the final minutes of this game.  Some very close calls ended up going both ways.

I fit in the category of having no dog in the fight (other than I think it's fun to see a major upset) so here's my take after watching the last 30 seconds three times. Taking the above in order I see them as follows:

--The blocking call on Victor Davis that led to Webster's go-ahead free throws was a tough call. It could have been a no-call and I think the ref should have let it go.

--The call that led to Overstreet's winning free throws was made based on the ref's view of Etter's reach-in. Since "reach-in" is not a violation, it depends on whether Etter illegally contacted Overstreet's forearm or wrist in order to dig out the ball. Overstreet would know so if you ever run in to Dylan, ask him. It's a tough call to make at that point in the game but if it happened at the 8 minute mark, no one would be talking about it. The replay is not conclusive.

--I'm not certain about my answer on the inbounds play. Technically, it's a turnover but I also know that officials seem to typically interpret it in such a way that if the first player to grab the ball after a made basket or FT was not trying to inbound it (only handing it to the player who is supposed to inbound it) then it's a judgment call by the official. If that speculation is correct, the first "pass" really wasn't a pass and can be ignored. One of my closest friends is a high school and college ref and I'll see him at church tomorrow and find out how that is ruled.

--The illegal screen call is a mystery to me. Huskey may have moved an inch or two left but after watching that particular play several times it's obvious that Zimmer got laid out because he didn't see Huskey. I would have let play continue. Was the official swayed by ignoring the potential inbounds violation seconds before? Only he knows for sure.

In summary, every game contains it's share of tough breaks and you have to overcome them in order to win. As a player, all you can do is try and control the aspects of the game over which you have some control. I didn't watch the other 39:30 of the game so if the calls evened out all that Webster can say is "We didn't make all the plays we needed to in order to spring the upset." I wouldn't say that IWU should be embarrassed to take the win.

[hopefan]

TQ... that's why I said let's start at the final 8 seconds... not 8.3 seconds

Oldknight... thanks for the 'no horse' writeup... I no longer post in the MIAA room.. been gone far too long to know the  ins and outs in Michigan...but I love following all of the 'veterans' chat up there...  thanks for following the writeups in the SLIAC room.. I'll be at Wash U tonight.. mid court upstairs, team bench side, and will wear my Hope sweatshirt.. if you or any of the other posters notice me, please say hi.. I'd love to put a face with some poster names,  AND... I'm not too nasty of a hope fan... anymore

[oldknight]

TQ... that's why I said let's start at the final 8 seconds... not 8.3 seconds

Oldknight... thanks for the 'no horse' writeup... I no longer post in the MIAA room.. been gone far too long to know the  ins and outs in Michigan...but I love following all of the 'veterans' chat up there...  thanks for following the writeups in the SLIAC room.. I'll be at Wash U tonight.. mid court upstairs, team bench side, and will wear my Hope sweatshirt.. if you or any of the other posters notice me, please say hi.. I'd love to put a face with some poster names,  AND... I'm not too nasty of a hope fan... anymore

Could I persuade you to at least wear a Calvin hat?

[hopefan]

TQ... that's why I said let's start at the final 8 seconds... not 8.3 seconds

Oldknight... thanks for the 'no horse' writeup... I no longer post in the MIAA room.. been gone far too long to know the  ins and outs in Michigan...but I love following all of the 'veterans' chat up there...  thanks for following the writeups in the SLIAC room.. I'll be at Wash U tonight.. mid court upstairs, team bench side, and will wear my Hope sweatshirt.. if you or any of the other posters notice me, please say hi.. I'd love to put a face with some poster names,  AND... I'm not too nasty of a hope fan... anymore

Could I persuade you to at least wear a Calvin hat?

Well the problem is, Wash U is secretly the 11th team in the SLIAC.. they just didn't play a complete SLIAC schedule, so they didn't qualify for the SLIAC tourney... so I kinda have to be rooting for them... on the other hand my MIAA roots are deep....

[Dutch32]

Technically, I'm not a fan of either team, so you could argue I have no dog in the fight.

You can stare at grainy on-demand film for hours, but there is one thing I truly believe: if the roles are reversed, and it's the CCIW heavyweight that is scrambling up the floor, down one in the final seconds at home to the SLIAC AQ in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, there is absolutely no way that foul is called.  I think IWU fans would have a hard time looking at me with a straight face and disagreeing.

Considering how unbelievable the game was up until that point, that's really a shame.

[Titan Q]

Technically, I'm not a fan of either team, so you could argue I have no dog in the fight.

You can stare at grainy on-demand film for hours, but there is one thing I truly believe: if the roles are reversed, and it's the CCIW heavyweight that is scrambling up the floor, down one in the final seconds at home to the SLIAC AQ in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, there is absolutely no way that foul is called.  I think IWU fans would have a hard time looking at me with a straight face and disagreeing.

Considering how unbelievable the game was up until that point, that's really a shame.

If that's the case - that the officiating crew from Indiana wanted to help the CCIW heavyweight for some reason - then why'd they give Webster the enormous break of not making the turnover call on the in-bounds?

[Dutch32]

If that's the case - that the officiating crew from Indiana wanted to help the CCIW heavyweight for some reason - then why'd they give Webster the enormous break of not making the turnover call on the in-bounds?

To your second question, that's a good question.  Maybe they didn't see it?  I can't answer it.  I feel like that play looks like a turnover even when it's executed correctly.

To your first question, perhaps it's just a gut feeling of mine.  I guess I'll backpedal just a bit and clarify that I'm not saying the officials actively were trying to hand IWU the game.  But I think it's easy to be influenced by your surroundings, and I will stand by my statement that given the environment, there's just no way that call is made on the home team.

[hopefan]

Technically, I'm not a fan of either team, so you could argue I have no dog in the fight.

You can stare at grainy on-demand film for hours, but there is one thing I truly believe: if the roles are reversed, and it's the CCIW heavyweight that is scrambling up the floor, down one in the final seconds at home to the SLIAC AQ in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, there is absolutely no way that foul is called.  I think IWU fans would have a hard time looking at me with a straight face and disagreeing.

Considering how unbelievable the game was up until that point, that's really a shame.

If that's the case - that the officiating crew from Indiana wanted to help the CCIW heavyweight for some reason - then why'd they give Webster the enormous break of not making the turnover call on the in-bounds?

To counter the awful reach in foul called on Etter...

No NO don't anyone get mad.. I couldn't resist the tease given all the prior conversation...

I find myself in a kinda wierd euphoric state right now because so many people CARE about something related to D3hoops and SLIAC basketball... something I've wanted to see for 10 years is coming true, at least for 24 hours, right now....