MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[BunchTime]

Webster would certainly have an advantage on the inside vs SNC.  I just don't know how WU would have been coming back less than 24 hours later after such an emotional game had they beaten IWU.

[Denny McKinney]

IF Wash U loses. I wonder if WU put in to Host Sectionals.

The officiating crew actually has a sack at Wash U. Calvin will probably travel a whole better. Attendance is very very small.

[Denny McKinney]

Calvin is a very entertaining team to watch. Alaboona finished his career with a Heck of a Game.

[Gregory Sager]

I finally got a chance to watch again the last couple of minutes of last night's game. Here's my thoughts in bold on the fouls Q pointed out:

In terms of calls in the last couple of minutes, I suppose these will all come down to what lens you're looking through, but here are my thoughts...

* (1:53:40) Titans up 67-64 with 2:12 to play, IWU's Brady Zimmer drives to the basket and called for a charge.  Webster defender was not set for long, and one that could have gone either way.  Webster gets the call and the ball back. Huskey's feet were set, and Zimmer led with his shoulder. The charge on Zimmer was the correct call. Even the IWU announcers agreed that it was a good call.

* (1:54:25) Titans up 67-64 with 1:48 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith misses a jumpshot and IWU PG Bryce Dolan is called for a foul on Hunter Ward.  I have watched this a few times and this call looked to be a big break for the Gorloks.  Hunter Ward makes 2 FTs. Nope, not a big break for the Gorloks. This foul was the correct call, too. Check Dolan's feet at 1:54:31 thru :33, and you'll see Dolan back into Ward while Ward is in the air, giving the Gorlok no place to land.

* (1:57:20) Gorloks up 68-67 with 0:43 to play, IWU goes into Andrew Ziemnik in the low post and he draws contact from Jarrod Huskey, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Ziemnik makes 2 FTs. Watching it again, it looked to me like a good place for a no-call. Huskey went straight up with his arms, and the belly-bump between the two husky (no pun intended) players was mutual.

* (1:59:45) Titans up 69-68 with 0:29 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith drives and draws contact from IWU's Victor Davis, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Smith makes 2 FTs. I'm with oldknight on this one. I wouldn't have made that foul call; Davis beat Smith to the spot. But it's not one I'd argue passionately about.

* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs. Oldknight is again correct that the replay is not conclusive, but I agree with GoPerry's two conclusions: 1) Huskey did not move forward into Overstreet; and 2) the ball's straight-downward angle would seem to indicate that Overstreet's dribbling arm was not affected by Etter. But, again, the camera angle just doesn't lend itself to a conclusive opinion here.

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this. According to the NCAA rulebook -- Rule 7.1.1., to be precise -- Etter was not out-of-bounds when he caught the endline pass from Ward. And, according to Rule 7.6.4, the throw-in pass officially begins when it is in the hands of a player who is entitled to throw it in (i.e., Ward). Bottom line: Ron Rose had a legitimate case. This was a definite miss by the referees, who should've ruled that Etter went out-of-bounds after catching the ball while in-bounds, thereby giving Illinois Wesleyan the ball.

* Immediately after above, Ahmad Smith rushes the ball up the floor, defending by Brady Zimmer.  Jarrod Huskey sets a screen about 30 feet from the basket.  Zimmer flares out to avoid Huskey, but then there is contact and Zimmer goes down.  I have watched this about 10 times and it seems to be Huskey initiates the contact with Zimmer with his left shoulder.  I think this was the right call whether 3 seconds into the game, or with 3 seconds to play.  I'm interested to hear what others see on this play - particularly those with no dog in the fight so to speak. Again, I'm with oldknight and GoPerry on this one. That was a clean screen by Huskey, and shouldn't have been called a foul.

I don't think Webster got cheated by the officials in the final minutes of this game.  Some very close calls ended up going both ways.

I agree. Particularly in terms of the missed throw-in call and the wrongly-called moving screen, there were two mistakes made by the refs in the final eight seconds, one that went in favor of Webster and one that went in favor of IWU, that basically canceled each other out.

[Denny McKinney]

I finally got a chance to watch again the last couple of minutes of last night's game. Here's my thoughts in bold on the fouls Q pointed out:

In terms of calls in the last couple of minutes, I suppose these will all come down to what lens you're looking through, but here are my thoughts...

* (1:53:40) Titans up 67-64 with 2:12 to play, IWU's Brady Zimmer drives to the basket and called for a charge.  Webster defender was not set for long, and one that could have gone either way.  Webster gets the call and the ball back. Huskey's feet were set, and Zimmer led with his shoulder. The charge on Zimmer was the correct call. Even the IWU announcers agreed that it was a good call.

* (1:54:25) Titans up 67-64 with 1:48 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith misses a jumpshot and IWU PG Bryce Dolan is called for a foul on Hunter Ward.  I have watched this a few times and this call looked to be a big break for the Gorloks.  Hunter Ward makes 2 FTs. Nope, not a big break for the Gorloks. This foul was the correct call, too. Check Dolan's feet at 1:54:31 thru :33, and you'll see Dolan back into Ward while Ward is in the air, giving the Gorlok no place to land.

* (1:57:20) Gorloks up 68-67 with 0:43 to play, IWU goes into Andrew Ziemnik in the low post and he draws contact from Jarrod Huskey, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Ziemnik makes 2 FTs. Watching it again, it looked to me like a good place for a no-call. Huskey went straight up with his arms, and the belly-bump between the two husky (no pun intended) players was mutual.

* (1:59:45) Titans up 69-68 with 0:29 to play, Webster's Ahmad Smith drives and draws contact from IWU's Victor Davis, who is called for a foul.  Seems like a pretty straight forward call.  Smith makes 2 FTs. I'm with oldknight on this one. I wouldn't have made that foul call; Davis beat Smith to the spot. But it's not one I'd argue passionately about.

* (2:03:00) Gorkoks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play, IWU's Dylan Overstreet drives into the lane.  Webster's Adam Letter is whistled for a reaching in foul.  This one is hard to see on the video, but based on where Etter is when the call is made (on Overstreet's right hip, chasing, and reaching in), it looks like a foul. Almost simultaneously, Overstreet is contacted by Jarrod Huskey as he attempts to pass to Brady Zimmer on the right wing...Huskey is moving forward into Overstreet.  I feel pretty confident Dylan Overstreet was fouled on this play.  Overstreet makes both FTs. Oldknight is again correct that the replay is not conclusive, but I agree with GoPerry's two conclusions: 1) Huskey did not move forward into Overstreet; and 2) the ball's straight-downward angle would seem to indicate that Overstreet's dribbling arm was not affected by Etter. But, again, the camera angle just doesn't lend itself to a conclusive opinion here.

* (2:04:40) Gorloks up 70-69 with 0:08 to play.  IWU's Dylan Overstreet makes 2 FTs.  On the in-bounds, Webster may have gotten away with a turnover.  Hunter Ward in-bounds to a player who is in-bounds heading back out-of-bounds.  He seems to catch it in the air in-bounds and land out-of-bounds.  I'm honestly not sure what the rules are on this. According to the NCAA rulebook -- Rule 7.1.1., to be precise -- Etter was not out-of-bounds when he caught the endline pass from Ward. And, according to Rule 7.6.4, the throw-in pass officially begins when it is in the hands of a player who is entitled to throw it in (i.e., Ward). Bottom line: Ron Rose had a legitimate case. This was a definite miss by the referees, who should've ruled that Etter went out-of-bounds after catching the ball while in-bounds, thereby giving Illinois Wesleyan the ball.

* Immediately after above, Ahmad Smith rushes the ball up the floor, defending by Brady Zimmer.  Jarrod Huskey sets a screen about 30 feet from the basket.  Zimmer flares out to avoid Huskey, but then there is contact and Zimmer goes down.  I have watched this about 10 times and it seems to be Huskey initiates the contact with Zimmer with his left shoulder.  I think this was the right call whether 3 seconds into the game, or with 3 seconds to play.  I'm interested to hear what others see on this play - particularly those with no dog in the fight so to speak. Again, I'm with oldknight and GoPerry on this one. That was a clean screen by Huskey, and shouldn't have been called a foul.

I don't think Webster got cheated by the officials in the final minutes of this game.  Some very close calls ended up going both ways.

I agree. Particularly in terms of the missed throw-in call and the wrongly-called moving screen, there were two mistakes made by the refs in the final eight seconds, one that went in favor of Webster and one that went in favor of IWU, that basically canceled each other out.

Here we go again. NO where does it say in that rule book that calls need to even up or off set. I don't get what a miss call at :08 has any thing what to do with the call at :03. Nothing! Except the call at :03 changed the final score. And, if Zimmer was guarding Smith with :08 the call would of never been called. Never. Overstreet goes to the hole out of control and for the game. It looks to me like he got stripped and bailed out. Best case it is a no call. Never a Foul. Never. Remember any contact between Huskey and anybody in the building has nothing to do with the call. The call was on Etter. That's what the Man called. So Huskey has nothing to do with the call. It's pretty obvious to me what happen. And, the tourney has there IWU v UWSP and Amherst v Williams final four.

[Titan Q]

Here we go again. NO where does it say in that rule book that calls need to even up or off set. I don't get what a miss call at :08 has any thing what to do with the call at :03. Nothing! Except the call at :03 changed the final score.

So you are assuming that whatever shot Webster was going to take at the buzzer was going in for sure?

[Titan Q]

Overstreet goes to the hole out of control and for the game. It looks to me like he got stripped and bailed out. Best case it is a no call. Never a Foul. Never.

There is no chance Overstreet got fouled? 

[Titan Q]

And, the tourney has there IWU v UWSP and Amherst v Williams final four.

What in the world does this mean?

[Denny McKinney]

We'll never know cause whistle was blown. That's the saddest part. The Kids were not allowed to decide the game. Swallow the whistle guys. There are those calls that always are followed by "You never make that call at that moment". There were two of those in the last :08. Both called. Both against Webster #168 in the country on the second biggest crowds team this side of the country (Hope #1). And on their home floor with a 99-1 fan rate for home team.

I don't know Q? I think last nite could of been a Huge Nite in DIII History. THE GAME!!! Sad, as just a fan, I don't get to see which Kids dug it out. "WHISTLE"

[Titan Q]

We'll never know cause whistle was blown. That's the saddest part. The Kids were not allowed to decide the game. Swallow the whistle guys. There are those calls that always are followed by "You never make that call at that moment". There were two of those in the last :08. Both called. Both against Webster #168 in the country on the second biggest crowds team this side of the country (Hope #1). And on their home floor with a 99-1 fan rate for home team.

I don't know Q? I think last nite could of been a Huge Nite in DIII History. THE GAME!!! Sad, as just a fan, I don't get to see which Kids dug it out. "WHISTLE"

So OK for Ahmad Smith to drive and get a call against Victor Davis with 0:29 to play (and get FTs to put Webster up 1), but not OK for Dylan Overstreet to drive and get a call with 0:09? 

And no recognition at all by you that Webster should have been called for a turnover in-bounding the ball?

[Denny McKinney]

I said that :08 no call, should have no bearing on the :03 call. They have nothing to do with each other. Make Up calls are not a part of the game. I guess we need a make up arrow. Like possession arrow. I guess in that world. Overstreet gets the make up for Smith. No call on in bounds makes up for the Overstreet call. But, the :03 call was a make up for what. Except end the game for no purpose but to not give the Kid a chance. Q it just was all not good for the game. IMO

[Denny McKinney]

Well folks I end the season on a strong two day run. I shook off 4 -1's to finish the year +97 and -92 for a +5 Karma. It was a first time ending the seaso on the plus side.

Good year and Good Luck All. Hopefan, EC., Yjak, Bunchtime and Mr. Lloyd, gC01 good year!!!!

[Gregory Sager]

We'll never know cause whistle was blown. That's the saddest part. The Kids were not allowed to decide the game. Swallow the whistle guys. There are those calls that always are followed by "You never make that call at that moment".

I strongly disagree. A basketball game should be called in a consistent manner by the referees for the full forty minutes. As Bob said yesterday, a foul with eight seconds left should be called the same way as a foul called eight seconds into the game. Consistency is the hallmark of any good referee -- and calling the game consistently throughout not only protects the integrity of the game, it protects the safety of the players.

I said that :08 no call, should have no bearing on the :03 call. They have nothing to do with each other. Make Up calls are not a part of the game. I guess we need a make up arrow. Like possession arrow. I guess in that world. Overstreet gets the make up for Smith. No call on in bounds makes up for the Overstreet call. But, the :03 call was a make up for what. Except end the game for no purpose but to not give the Kid a chance. Q it just was all not good for the game. IMO

But you can't prove that the moving-screen call on Huskey with :03 left was a make-up call, Denny. You can't prove intent on the part of the official, because you are not a mind-reader.

Some make-up calls are obvious -- a blatantly bad call by a ref that goes against one team is matched moments later by another bad call by that ref that goes in the opposite direction. But that's not what happened at the end of Friday night's game. The call against Etter on Overstreet's drive with :08 left was not a blatantly bad call. Three of us who are not IWU partisans have stated in this room that the camera angle was inconclusive, and that, while it appeared that it may not have been a good call, there is no hands-down, slam-dunk evidence that it was a blown call. Plus, your use of the throw-in mistake on the part of the refs doesn't wash, because it was a non-call, not an actual whistle. The refs missed it, and that's the whole point. Refs don't try to make up for something that they didn't see, especially in continuous action. They try to make up for something that they saw and called wrong.

There was no stoppage of play between the throw-in and the Huskey foul, so they would've had no way of knowing about the throw-in mistake (nobody can convince me that Ron Rose could've made himself heard above the din in those last few seconds, or that Rose could've articulated his complaint properly in such a brief span of time). I highly doubt that the officials were even aware of the complaint about the throw-in until after they'd whistled Huskey at the other end of the floor.

As I said on Friday night, I hate make-up calls as much as anybody, and I've made negative remarks on the air when I've seen refs employ make-up calls. But there's no evidence that the final eight seconds of Friday night's game involved any make-up calls at all. The two calls, and the non-call that they sandwiched, simply don't fit the profile.

[BunchTime]

Sager, all that is fine and well, make- up call or not, "a foul that should never called with 8 seconds left" or not, the fact remains...the call on Huskey was atrocious and robbed Webster of the chance to win. It was embarrassing finish to an otherwise great game.

[y_jack_lok]

I lived in Lexington, KY in 1984 and was at the NCAA D1 regional tournament when Kentucky beat Illinois to get to the Final Four. There was a very controversial block/charge call very late in the game that went Kentucky's way (I don't remember if Kentucky was on offense or defense, but it doesn't matter) that had a huge influence on possession in a very close game. Kentucky won that game narrowly and Illinois fans blamed that call for costing them the game. I moved to Illinois six years later and lived there for 11 years. People in Illinois remembered that game and that call and felt cheated by it15 or 16 years later. I hope we can move past what happened at IWU Friday night so we won't be talking about it in 2029.